IS IT TRUE September 24, 2013

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Mole #3 Nostradamus of Local Politics
Mole #3 Nostradamus of Local Politics

IS IT TRUE September 24, 2013

IS IT TRUE that last night’s meeting of the Evansville City Council started out with contentious factions in the street with organized and in your face support being expressed to hurry up and vote right now on accepting the deal of the day to sign a developer for a downtown convention hotel?…the supporters were disrespectful of both opposition citizens and members of the City Council who were not declared as yes votes?…there were cat calls, booing, hissing, sounds of aghastness, and all sorts of other innuendo of negativity directed at anyone who was not high on the endorphins of an approaching short term buzz that they believed a rapid yes vote would bring them?…this is for the most part the same babbling hoard that was begging and using intimidation tactics trying to push something through on September 3rd that would have given away a $37.5 Million subsidy?…this element of spoiled children would have howled for yes votes if the price tag for the same shiny toy would have been $100 Million?…things have changed dramatically for the better since then and all of that positive change can be sourced with the skeptics who were not willing to roll over and pay any price to anyone with or without a pulse who would agree to put up a convention hotel?…the people of Evansville would be well served to never ever listen to the original yes crowd ever again when money is involved?

IS IT TRUE when Brad Linzy started his 3 minute presentation by asking the crowd “how they liked saving $17.5 Million” they were silent?…he then simply said “if you liked saving $17.5 Million you’re welcome” speaking the mind of all of the prudent people who do not flex for shiny objects including the “RESPONSIBLE SIX” members of the City Council who thankfully voted to wait one more week and review the details of the new resolution that was not even written until 3 hours before the council meeting?…rather than following the example of Nancy Pelosi (gotta pass it to see what it is) seven of the members of our city council did the right thing, and the prudent thing, to read and understand the details before even holding a vote?…of course Councilman Weaver and Councilwoman Mosby who have been wearing YES buttons to meetings and have been founding members of the pass it now at any price club voted NO on waiting a week solidifying their irrelevant status for all future votes involving money?…when Mr. Linzy complemented the Mayor on the events of the last 4 days and stated that this agreement is very close to something even he would support the room took on a different tone?…that set of words was the point where most everyone realized that there is a very high probability that the quest for a hotel will be fulfilled soon?…there are just a few more barriers to having a good shot at a unanimous vote from the City Council and overwhelming community support?

IS IT TRUE it is time for Mayor Winnecke and the support group to cease their tactic of trying to pick off 2 council members with arm twisting and work on a few easy modifications that will galvanize the support of the community behind this project?…one of those things is to eliminate the Innkeeper’s Tax from the direct hotel subsidy?…another is to make every effort to eliminate the need for Riverboat money to pay the bonds?…if these two things are accomplished every reasonable objection will be removed and Evansville can use this painful last month as a learning exercise as a model on how to do things in the future?

IS IT TRUE that if this is accomplished through precise language and any needed modifications even the City County Observer will offer is praise and blessings for this deal?…sometimes working together takes some disagreement but this time the end result may just set a standard convention hotel deals?…Evansville seems to be a few modifications and one week from making the deal of the decade when it comes to downtown convention hotels?…this is not the time to take our eyes off the ball?

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58 COMMENTS

  1. I hope Evansville learns from this nasty, divisive interlude because there is going to be a need for hard work, collaboration, and prudence while getting the sewer job underway and competing successfully for the IU Medical School. Do I think we did? I’ll reserve judgement for awhile on that one.

  2. They should still be required to submit to vetting. This includes the new investors. I don’t think the details of their deal should remain secret either. I don’t care to know who they are, but I do care about the specifics of their deal.

    • I don’t know if we are going to get the vetting we’d like to get, but there MUST be an iron-clad contract on this thing. I’m guessing that TZ will be representing the City on that one. Hmm….

  3. As long as the Innkeepers Tax is being used to fund a ball fields project at Goebel that will benefit very few hoteliers outside of Dunn Hospitality, I have no problem with it being used for this hotel. In fact, I say use all of it on the hotel and save the TIF funds.

    If the ball fields were placed in the other central location, then perhaps the case could be made for a fair distribution of the Innkeepers Funds but as of right now if it’s going to be wasted waste it on a new convention hotel.

    • I agree those fields need to be moved, or not built at all. The current location is remote. But honestly, that has nothing to do with our moral objection to the innkeeper tax associated with the hotel.

      • Is the planned site in the city limits? I assume it is or the Mayor is even more stupid than I thought.

          • Why wouldn’t the city press hard to have the fields in the City Limits then? They are striking out on getting more of the benefits. Pure stupidity.

          • Politics and thats been the main statement when I talk to residents and businesses in the Jacobsville area. I mean let’s be honest here: The city has an organization willing to sit down with Mattingly to go to MLB to get funds to drive down the costs on this project, they have a youth baseball organization welcoming these fields being added next to their, they have a neighborhood in full support (not the case with the current plan), they have the Evansville Otters saying they will embrace it, there’s also been some in gov’t development offices say they support it, there’s methane gas underneath it that just about any and all engineers say can be converted into electricity, AND it’s at the corner of First & Diamond, two baseball terms. And yet, they still won’t even look at the freaking site.

            Here’s the most ironic thing about it. If you mapquest Goebel to the east side hotels, it’s 6.47 to 6.88 miles…

            http://mapq.st/1b2WF8i

            If you mapquest Kleymeyer to Dunn’s hotel in US 41 it’s 4.88 miles…

            http://mapq.st/16wXmSb

            It would be right down Main Street from the Ford Center & new hotel AND would be closer to a Dunn Hospitality hotel. Everyone wins, what’s the hold up?

          • Rails: You ever looked into brownfield recovery money to enhance your idea on the KleyMeyer location,that is also in the planning for the mix nationally to meet environmental balances of multiple use urban restructuring. Ideation blending is an learned process for some,then being innovative is just natural for some.

            The location really does make some dollars and sense if the landfill methane could be tapped for an sustained period of production,looking at that, in your area there is mention of an example the utility company was looking into at the present land fill operation to the north west.
            Actually not very far away, by tapping the rail easement running close by both locations sustainability is an real sourcing factor.
            Combined planning for the advanced future operations is what vision is about in the expanding world of true innovation.
            Keep up the good work with your ideas, the more you explore that, the more solutions and branch pathways you will find.

      • You can’t argue that hoteliers should have to keep track and turn over Innkeeper Funds to a ball fields project whose top 3 locations were nearby their main competitor but then say it is wrong for these same hoteliers to have to collect money for a hotel that really tailors to a completely different market, is taking BACK business it already had from the east side with Bob Green, and is going to increase the Innkeepers Tax Fund itself easily by $2 million whether the project is a glowing success or goes belly up.

        It is also pointless to save Innkeepers Funds on this project only to have them dumped into a Goebel complex that is not eligible for MLB grants due to it not being in the inner urban core.

        Lastly, this is not a “moral” issue. Yes, I don’t want the small hotels to struggle here but that’s not where the main opposition is coming from. This basically millionaires fighting over more millions. A moral issue to me is how some of those on the city council treated our cemeteries. A moral issue to me is fixing blighted wards so that citizens don’t live in poverty. A moral issue to me is demolishing the current animal control and building a new one so that cats and dogs are not killed because of the almighty dollar.

        A moral issue is not rich people fighting over dollars. If all the Innkeepers Funds earmarked for this ball fields complex are reallocated to this hotel and business shifts back in from the east side to downtown, I will still sleep pretty damn good tonight. For the above three, I do not.

        • I’m completely with you on the ball fields. That is just the kind of stupidity that holds us back. Somebody who’s “connected” politically is going to make a bundle on that deal.
          I really still don’t like using Innkeeper funds for the downtown hotel, though. I think it would cause more than $2 million worth of hard feelings, and we need to be moving on to getting the IU Med School. Warrick Co. is not going down without a fight.

        • Jordan, neither I nor Phillip Schultz are hoteliers, nor do we have any contact with any of the Dunns on this opposition effort…none.

          There is a clear moral issue with the innkeeper’s tax here. That tax comes our of the potential profits of hoteliers no matter how you slice it because every service has an optimal cost and this tax eats into that cost, taking revenue out of the pockets of the hoteliers. Now, we can argue all we like on whether they get their money back in benefits – that’s debatable and will certainly vary according the WHERE your hotel is. Do the Dunns’ hotels get a lion’s share of benefits? Perhaps a case could be made there, and it would be a good argument for getting rid of the tax altogether; however, our feelings about the Dunns, one way or the other, should have no bearing on our assessment of this issue in isolation, namely the issue of taking taxes from the potential profits of hoteliers with the express purpose of directly funding a competitor who will garner 70% of his business from existing hotels in the area.

          This is the crux of the immorality. It is one of the last hurdles that we need to clear in order to satisfy the bulk of our people on our side.

          • I don’t think you’re working for Dunn at all. But I do think the rest of your argument is bologna.

            This IS NOT an issue in isolation. Any Innkeeper dollar saved on this hotel project will go directly into the ball fields project. I even read on the Indiana Economic Digest where they are having to use some reserve funds for this. It’s ball fields or hotel and I’m going with hotel. Saving $2 mil on a hotel just so ball fields can be built at an inferior location that will end up costing much more to build with no grants is flat out pointless, it really is.

            The Dunn Hospitality hotels on the east side are the byproduct of not just millions but BILLIONS of dollars in city, state, and probably soon to be fed dollars for infrastructure. These funds were paid by those who lived in the existing core to extend the infrastructure for development into an area that did not need to be developed. This development took business away from them and ended up proving to be the demise of quite a huge chunk of downtown.

            Using $2 million for the Innkeepers towards the $2.4 million to renovate the Centre to help grab this business BACK is not too much to ask for. In fact, I’d like to see the whole $7.5/$20/$27.5 million (whatever we’re up to now) used from the Innkeepers not the downtown TIF.

            This is still not a morality issue. Principle issue? Yes. Morality. No.

            I don’t support Lloyd Winnecke in any shape or form and I don’t even trust him after the whole Roberts saga. I felt like he used me for everything he could. However, he is absolutely right in using an out of town investor who will not be attached to the good ole boy political system (although the other bids STILL need to be released). If the city is going to move forward it needs to move back to the urban core, with or without Dunn Hospitality.

      • Brad: You do not appear to understand “innkeeper tax”.

        The “innkeeper tax” is not the hotelier’s money any more than “sales tax” is the hotelier’s money. The hotelier’s just collect the both taxes from the people who do business at the hotel.

        • Which just proves you do not understand marginal costs and benefits, nor how taxes affect the elasticity of demand.

          You sir are a poseur.

          • Brains Benton: I was President and CEO of a $200 million Company when I was 44 years old or 25 years ago.

            What business have you run?

  4. CCO,

    You are laying down your weapons too soon. There is still no Business Plan, still no proof of financing from HCW, and the particulars of the $ 11.5 Million “Investment” by rich local businessmen will not be released. Why ? What type of sweetheart deals did the big hitters carve out ? Our public subsidy is a GIFT, and I question why taxpayers get NOTHING for their jack, and the silk stocking boys get loaded, using the Public piece as leverage ??

    Pick up your guns and resume firing, still more work to do,

    Harold

      • Good thinking on that. I think the cheering squad is trying to put on a happy face, because they think this is the best they can do. It’s sort of like the “easy girl” in the class trying to get asked to Prom.

      • Editor,

        1) It is unclear to me whether the public piece is now $ 7.5 MM; $ 20 MM; or $ 27.5 MM. Please anoint one; and

        2) Re: continued protest: the fact that there has still been ZERO vetting (sorry, ERC) remains worrisome to this old man. If the public subsidy is now $ 20 MM, and that money is flushed down ‘The John’ because this thing was never going to cash flow–that is still A BAD DEAL (not as bad as watching $ 37.5 MM go down the pipes, but still BAD).

        Seems like there is now zero will to actually do the vetting, I sense a Johnson Controls-like look amongst the Council Members. They have made their political gains, embarrassed LW, and they have bragging rights re: the “saved money”. NOT GOOD ENOUGH, more effort is needed to ‘get it right’.

        • The public piece as I analyze it is as follows:

          $7.5 Million: Direct Hotel Subsidy
          $5.4 Million: Parking Garage
          $3.6 Million: Infrastructure (City of Evansville)
          $2.0 Million: CVB contribution for infrastructure and Centre improvements
          $1.5 Million: County Contribution for infrastructure and Centre improvements

          Total: $20 Million

          • I would agree to the $7.1 million for infrastructure, and the Centre improvements, which they should do anyway if the county is running it. Would also agree with the $5.4 for the parking garage, provided it was city owned….but the $7.5 million shouldn’t happen. Should not give money away to a private company like that. It doesn’t mention the property either…I assume we are still giving them that even though no numbers from the administration have shown that. I would be fine with selling them the land for $1.00, that way we get it off our books and can start bringing in more property taxes to the city.

          • Why is it that the City wasn’t going to get any equity in the project when we were going to give them $20M, but the new unidentified $11.5M investors are reportedly equity partners in the project?

            And the city still gets nothing for their $7.5M contribution??

            Also, the new partners want our gift money but want their terms and even names confidential? This thing still smells bad!

        • I’d like to address the discussion about vetting. The initial investigation into the developer in any large project is the RFQ. There is not an in-depth financial review until the developer has a green light from the city to proceed. The investigation into their financial information, the feasability of the project and their credit worthiness is done by a financial institution that is well-versed on financial privacy laws and will keep their sensitive information confidential. The bank will not put their money on the line if the developer or project is questionable. We, the city of Evansville, will not issue a single bond to HCW until they pass the inspection by the bank. This is similar to when you sell a house and someone gives you an offer. They don’t give you their information, they give it to the bank and the bank makes the decision. The step that we are currently on is to determine if we want to accept the offer and send it to the bank.

          • Have you ever heard of the term PRE-QUALIFIED? That is often a requirement for acceptance of a housing offer nowadays. That was started because so many people were washing out at the bank. Why wasn’t this deal PRE-QUALIFIED six months ago like it should have been. There is no excuse for the giddy foolishness of wanting to hand out $37.5 Million and leaving the vetting for last. That was just dumb and irresponsible. Learn from it for next time. To hear the Mayor on the radio saying the first deal was a bad deal is really amusing. Of course we can hope that he has learned his lesson with the rest of your lot but that is doubtful since he did not learn from the Earthcare joke. Listening to that Dewey woman last night argue against vetting was nauseating. She is the one that vetted Earthcare after the people of Evansville went nuts over the snake oil show they put on. She and Winnecke never should be allowed to manage a piggy bank again.

          • It is not our business how NCW get their funding for a project, unless it’s just to prove they can get funding somehow. What if they had cash on hand and weren’t going to a bank?

            The City Council is giving away $20 million. They have every right to a full and independent vetting with whatever information they wish to ask for. Period.

            The bank’s money and the taxpayers’ money are two distinct considerations. Why should someone sign their name to give away funds without first seeing who they’re giving them to? Municipalities shouldn’t allow companies asking for a handout to set the rules of the game or be bullied by their Mayor’s Office into capitulating on a deal they feel uncomfortable with.

      • The current proposal is better than the previous one. The previous deal was a good financial proposal as well. Thanks to to the Mayor’s hard work and others including the business community participation along with strong public and labor support, we are going get a much needed convention hotel.

        We are lucky that HCW did not walk.

        • A bad deal only looks better after a finding new ways to present it differently is still a bad deal get real Wayne!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Harold, you have good points. You need to come speak next Monday. In the meantime, call your council members, particularly focus on O’Daniel, Robinson, and Riley.

      • Can’t make it next Monday, I have a standing date each Monday evening with pizza & beer at Talk of the Town. If they would like to move the meeting to that location … I’m sure everyone could squeeze in !

    • I’m not sure I believe that individuals are personally committing funds — rather it would seem that funds are being committed by individuals from the businesses they happen to lead (but not necessarily own). Will be interesting to see if any individuals are writing personal checks — my personal opinion is that they are not. Just a thought….

    • The_Daily_Harold : The battle is over. A better deal is on the table. If any City Council person votes against the current deal on Monday, they will not get re-elected in 2015. The public, labor and the business community support this hotel proposal big time. It is time to move on.

      • That is what you said last week you tool. You were on here telling everyone to get on board and give away $37.5 Million or they won’t get re-elected. Now the naysayers are the heros of the town. How damn dumb do you feel now that $17.5 Million was taken out of the deal. Where were the white knights a month ago? Hunkered down in a hole waiting for a handout. It is match point for the machine and they anted up $11.5 Million to keep the illusion of power. This broke them. Life will never be the same in Evanspatch for the old boy network. As SBR said last night, there is blood in the water and it is the blood of the machine operatives.

        • I love that blood and hope it’s universal. The one party system is not working and needs to end. Wienie was hand picked to run against Weinsapple because he’d be the onlt way he could be re-elected. Davis win upset the plan and there had to be a change of plans. The independant voter/citizen needs to retrieve their government.

  5. When it gets Down to $000000.00
    Not one thin dime of taxpayer money
    Should be used on hotel project
    Period.

  6. Why is it the cities responsibility to keep these trade workers employed? If I am out of work I find another job, these trade workers can do the same. It may not be the same wages but they can find a job that pays something until something better comes a long.

    • We have some high skill workers in town who need a job. They will be working for their wages. Maybe you will get a better job as well.

      • Prevailing wage does not mean union. Will the contractors hire non-union workers at the prevailing wage? Non-union people need work too. Non union people also pay taxes and vote. This union only bullshit is illegal in Indiana since right to work passed. Are you still for right to work Wayne?

  7. Top Ten reasons to be AGAINST the Hotel Project

    10. Marsha, Della, Wayne, and the C&P are FOR it.

    9. The mayor and his minions have proven their
    outstanding negotiating skills.

    8. Zero will always be greater than all the negative
    numbers that will be racked up by the Hotel

    7. Because an industry with 35% over capacity is such a
    great business to be in.

    6. Evansville is such a great destination city

    5. Because politicians across the country have done such
    a great job in keeping their promises on convention
    centers and adjacent hotels

    4. The Mayor has proven himself to be SO trustworthy
    throughout this process

    3. Because of all the great numbers and forecasts
    provided by the “FOR SIDE”

    2. No Vetting? Vote NO!

    1. We are the business plan!

  8. Top Ten reasons to be FOR the Hotel Project

    10. Proforma financial statements are for nerds.

    9. Vetting? We don’t need no stinking vetting.

    8. Every other mayor has a convention center and we
    wouldn’t want ours to be left out of the group
    picture.

    7. Because being the last one to jump on the bandwagon
    has proven to be a successful investment strategy.

    6. If it fails we can count on FC Tucker Reality to
    bail us out.

    5. You haven’t lived until you’ve experienced the
    thrill of giving away other people’s money

    4. Its none of Connie Robinson’s business what the
    Return On Investment is to the City.

    3. Miley Cyrus and the Unions will need a job in 5 years
    when we’re ready to tear it down.

    2. Because “I don’t know” is a perfectly acceptable
    answer when asking questions about a multi-million
    dollar project.

    1. So what if every other city loses money on their
    convention center and hotel…
    “We are Evansville”

    • I know you are trying to be funny and that is OK, as long as you understand this is serious issue.

      • I understand perfectly what is going on. The best way not lose money gambling is to not “play the game” to begin with.

      • I understand this is an extremely serious issue to the political machine in town as evidenced by the traveling road show you put on. Also because skids have to be greased, union bosses need to be paid, and campaign coffers have to be fattened.

        To the City of Evansville? Meh. Not so much.

  9. Please read and understand where it is i and others are comming from.

    The past 30 years i have worked 5 days a week with exception of a few months of being unemployed, while i was unemployed i never once took any unemployment benefits, food stamps, no welfare, nodda, lived off of savings until things turned around. Now i see my local Gov. is about to hand over 20 million to someone who isn’t even from my City ? Can you understand why some of us are irked ?

    A hand out is a hand out no matter how you look at it, and knowing that my kids and grandkids will be the ones who will end up paying for this disaster makes me sick. By the time i have grandkids i bet it will be just another empty and failed building downtown.

  10. My question at this point is can this really be ironed out in a week. I’m very impressed with the current proposal but I still think there needs to be a little bit more chopped off with the Ford Center storage facility and maybe the parking garage to get this back down into the Woodruff/Kunkel range.

    But the main problem I see is that Mr. Joe Wallace has told us that in the private sector, you are required to turn over hundreds if not thousands of papers over to be vetted. Not only does that seem like something that is going to take more than a week, we still haven’t ironed out the Non Disclosure Act controversy. While this plan is better, all of those problems still linger.

    For those advocating that this deal should be passed on the idea that it’s now a better plan, please remember that the previous three tries where all failures due to the investor, not the city, being unable to come through with the proper funding. If the proper vetting does not take place, and this happens again, what makes anyone think doing it a 5 time would be any better?

  11. I’m typically not a negative person but why would the IU Medical School want to locate in downtown Evansville?

    If they locate in the area it will be right across the county line near the Women’s Hospital. That makes sense.

  12. Scott Danks has been making calls that he is running for County Chairman. The City Council attorney? Is this an ethical conflict?

    • I don’t see why it would be. County chairpersons are often elected or appointed officials. I hope there is someone else, though.

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