IS IT TRUE October 15, 2013

1. We never should’ve given him ANY money-he should have to look at that gaping hole downtown to remind him of the stupidity he’s wrought.
   BUT-that being said-we SHOULD all get out and clean up our own parks and neighborhoods-I remember our block, raking leaves, burning them, cleaning the gutters-even doing the yards of elderly folks-all together. I still love the smell of burning leaves-it was the smell of fall to me.

   • Your burning leaves gave others heart attacks and asthema. It’s illegal to burn leaves inside the city limits. And it may also be illegal to burn leaves in the state of INDIANA.

     The worst thing to burn is leaves especially if they are wet and not getting enough oxygen in the fire.

     Burning leaves can raise the CO levels to three times the legal limit in a city. This is why Evansville chose to ban the burning of leaves a long time ago.

     I love the smell of composting leaves.

     I chop up all my leaves with a riding lawn mower that mulches everything up into tiny pieces. This mulch helps feed the turf and keeps the air cleaner.

     • Go hug a tree!

2. Yes, focus on getting RTW jobs $8/hr with no bennies for which you need a Ph. D. Kill unions, kill the middle class. Reagan’s vision is almost complete.

   • Putting a gun to the head of one’s employer is not the road to prosperity dude. If you want to see the end game of union dominance look to Detroit. The road to a great lifestyle is paved with being a value adding employee with both the company ownership and yourself making plenty of money and expanding. Get smart, add value, and do the math for the value you add. If you make your employer PROFITS of $100 per hour only ask for $80 of it so you both can live in harmony. Dummies and lazy people are the the only ones that think they need unions.

     • People who don’t understand history and human nature are the only ones who think they don’t need unions.
       If you think typical employers will give up 80% of their profit to workers, you’re out-of-touch to say the least. Look up what Lincoln said about labor in his first Inaugral Address and think about it.

       • Does human nature change because it’s a union rather than a corporation? Maybe some understand things you don’t understand. It’s down right insulting to hear so often that if someone has a different opinion then that person must not understand.

         If unions were realistic and truly cared for working people and jobs, then they would provide a value that is not threatened by RTW. As it is they are no different than corporations and have become little more than a fund raising arm for the democrats.

         I am painting with a broad brush and understand that unions have been and often still are necessary.

         • “I am painting with a broad brush and understand that unions have been and often still are necessary.”

           Indeed! Nobody said unions are perfect, but they offer the best option to maintaining a middle class that drives our economy. Unions ebb, the middle class ebbs, the economy ebbs. Does that situation sound familiar?
           Those who growl about “greed of union workers” just need to take a look at the stagnant level of middle class earnings for the last forty years and compare that to the earnings of the top 5% over the same period.

         • No,they don’t offer the best option. The best option is to acquire a marketable skill. Even unions know that and some spend much time and effort in training. That is one thing they do well and should.

           Your “ebbs” is a “Tuesdays cause rain” false cause logical fallacy. If the middle class is ebbing as you say, it may well be because our government and debt is encouraging businesses to hoard profits rather than risk them in creating good jobs.

           I don’t care what the top 5% earns. That is class warfare and a third world philosophy of economics. Greed is not limited to a financial bracket.

       • This is always the argument of pro-union people: without unions we’d all be eating at the company store. This is an oversimplification.

         The history of unions within the larger context of human technological development and particularly against the backdrop of the Industrial Revolution is more complex than simply saying without unions we’d all be slaves on a corporate plantation.

         There is no question that unions played an important role at one stage in the development of western society. The right of workers to organize and attempt to negotiate higher wages and increased benefits is a right that should always be respected. But the other side of the coin comes in the risk of losing the jobs to some “scab”.

         The violence, threats, vandalism, and abuse that occur to enforce union demands are criminal activities, as are the racketeering and pension frauds associated with union history. It did not help union public relations when the large unions were found to have mob ties in the 1950s and 1960s.

         The bottom line is this: if workers really want to secure better conditions for themselves, they should either invest heavily enough in the corporations for which they work (in the event they are public) so they have a real say in the election of officers, or they should start their own competing companies that treat workers they way they think they should be treated.

         • My favorite grocery when I’m in Florida is Publix, which is employee-owned. The stores are always clean, the staff is friendly, goods are high quality, and the employee-owners can support their families. No SNAP or Medicaid needed for them!

         • I do not have a problem with unions as much as I do with project labor agreements contrived to promote unionism at the expense of all other labor.

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       • Lincoln said he was for the man willing to work, I think he would be disappointed in our great society. Labor unions currently represent 8.2% of the work force and is in a continual decline. The labor unions, in my opinion have done more to wreck the middleclass than the envious top 5%. Clinton assisted the decline of unions with NAFTA and I think ACA will further help the decline. When a union janitor with Ford makes $80,000 a year a company would be foolish not to go to Mexico. I predict more decline in the big 3. When old white men with years of Big 3 loyalty go to Toyota and other brands that spells trouble.

         • Graph decline in union membership and decline in middle class income. They look almost identical. Once again, Reagan’s dismantling of the middle class is almost complete.

3. “just to the ear the magnitude of the road noise gets pretty offensive as one gets within 100 paces or so from the Lloyd?”

   You make a good point here. One thing any park should be is a place to get away from the noise. Of course, a sound barrier will only make this area look less attractive and add to the overall cost of the project. I seriously doubt this has been considered by the Winnecke administration.

   • I can tell you that this idea has been brought up and discussed. There is supposedly a “final plan” (a revised version) out there somewhere which should show some version of this idea but how much I can’t say. A natural sound buffer — trees, native plants — was one of many suggestions I made and feel that it is very important to provide a place for people to get away from the “traffic of life.”

     I feel it is wise that Roberts Park be put on hold not only until the above-mentioned large projects are determined, but until there is a commitment from the mayor and parks department to simplify the plan as we last saw it and decrease the proposed amount of paving planned. Paving = storm water runoff in an area where lots of water is now being absorbed into the ground. That’s how nature works folks. Wesselman is a natural park and should not be treated like a landscape contest.

4. “…those in Evansville who think one hotel will even put a dent in infrastructure and jobs issues are tilting at windmills?…”

   Tilting? Yes, yes they are and to pretend its a start is only a self deception.

5. Surrounding neighborhoods could and should help maintain existing parks, and at this “shaky” point, we do not need to add parks. The traffic noise at Roberts is a good point I had not thought of, too.
   I am really concerned that the Roberts site is not “on the table” for the Medical Center. It is the viable compromise between downtown and the Gateway area.
   Thank you, CCO, for reminding readers that the downtown hotel is not going to be a “big draw” for Evansville. The people who are touting it as a panacea for what ails the city are either fools or liars.
   It is obvious that we have to look to the City Council for true leadership, because the Mayor is “in the tank” for downtown interests.

   • Well said. I think that they know the truth and just ignore it as long as they and the downtown property owners can make more money off the hotel deal.

     Nothing is ever going to revitalize our downtown and a hotel is not really going to help downtown very much.

     It’s not going to bring back all the stores that are not closed and boarded up. It’s not going to clean the bricks of the soot that’s built up on the bricks over the last 100 years.

     It’s not going to fix the aging sewers in this town.

     It’s not going to give people more and better jobs in this town either.

   • I think the Mayor’s plan is/was to get construction started or at least get money allocated toward building something on that site so it cannot even be a possibility for IU.

6. Slow down folks, put your wallet up! The City needs to forget/table the idea of a park on the Roberts Stadium ground. Mow it, leave it open and reserve it for potential sale or use for the future. Think, instead of leaping, for once!

   What a great spot for potential private development of an Aquarium, waterpark, Interactive Science Pavilion, something of German history or heritage, a maze and botanical garden, an amphitheater, or other sort of a attraction that adds value to the city and a draw for families. Maybe someone will stay in that new Hotel we’re going to build if they have something to do.

   • Agree completely with your first paragraph. Second paragraph somewhat but I see this playing out a little differently. I will say this decision is going to take a minimum of 15 to 20 years to make correctly. This is no different than the other demolished iconic lots.

7. If none of the council members mentioned Roberts as a possible IU location in their reasoning for refusing funding for a dog park, i’m disappointed.

   The rationale of supporting a park there and only refusing funding on the basis of wanting to get IU behind us first is flimsy and sets us up for passage of the funding next year.

   If Roberts doesn’t go to IU it should either be rezoned and auctioned off, used as community garden space, or something else that might produce. If this is back on the table next year, I’ll organize a protest of cat, bird, fish, and guinea pig owners for their fair share of the public loot.

   • Community Garden Space is an excellent idea.

     • We are certainly going to need more community garden spaces, with food prices going up and quality going down. Growing things together is a good way to develop a “sense of community.”

       • EKB; Missing the chance there to have solid impact on advanced applications to defeat the EPA mandate is a shame.
         The location at Roberts can be restructured and applied as a Incremental solution to CSO and the overall Climate change foot print of the whole of its district. Easy science is available,however I’m still working on fitting it into a flower pot… 😉

         Other current, “wish list projects” all can be restructured to meet the same criteria in commerce drivers.
         The mandate can be addressed and met and standards set to exceed future system growth requirements, (Goal no future fines,only municipal profits.)

         You can have a park with the plan concept,as well as a demonstration on just how municipalities can find movement forward on the Global climate change problem.
         A public space that adds function and funding to its support base with solid structured return commerce numbers.
         Globally its predicted that sustainable market growth through those type of applications will generate and drive about 60 trillion dollars through innovation by 2030.
         The present entire global economy market stream is around 70 trillion. Say I any more?
         This IS where the growth will be moving forward. Environmental/Planet life sciences.
         If not the planet is going to move backward pretty darn fast.

         Really, its the science of smart green spaces and productive uses for those. And real steadily increasing numbers generated by those applications,commerce evolution.

         Other communities and commerce will flock in to learn the process.

         “Attraction,Innovation,sustainability,Job creation, through Infrastructure improvements.better logistics,something to exit I-69 for..”Destination content included.”

         Environmental responsibility,improved life qualities. Healthy attractive sustainable communities advancing forward solving problems incrementally with planet smart balance.

         “cave ab homine unius libri”

         “beware of anybody that has just one book”

   • Brad I think that the council was wise not to mention any space in the area as a possible IU Med School space because we still need more info from IU. All the speculating in the world is just so much filled air until something more substantive is on the table. There are many things that we cannot possibly know at this point so curb your jets a bit. There is another large aspect to this that may come to light in the next month or so.

     • I wasn’t saying we should be putting words in IU’s mouth, but we should be keeping our options wide open as possible in the event they would like to use the Roberts site. I was disappointed, given some of their past statements expressing interest in the idea, that this reason wasn’t mentioned among a cocktail of reasons for not building a dog park on that site.

       Some official public acknowledgement that Roberts and ESH would be good sites to pitch IU would have been nice to hear, instead we get general support for a park on that site. I’d rather see the site return to forest and community gardens than throw another dime down the black hole.

       • I somewhat agree. Why can’t Roberts be allowed to grow and develop as a dog park with minimal funding? I think a dog park is important to young tax paying professionals who receive few benefits for their tax dollars. The young professionals that I know are not into kids but do have pets. Kids are for those who can’t afford them.

         • The school will bring students who are studying to be “young professionals”, not people who are already working in a profession. These will be students who want to be MDs, PAs, Nurse Practitioner, Radiology Therapists, Physical Therapists, and Nurses.
           Most of these students will be in this school at least partially, because of its afforability. They are likely going to be keeping their noses to the grindstone to make their grades and make ends meet.

       • If I were a medical student I would want my school close to the hospital where I would be doing clinical work.

         I’d want a school that was close to grocery stores, apartments and other type of stores like Pharmacies, Car repair shops and shopping centers for goods and clothing.

         Kids live on fast food like pizza and hamburgers and French fries. So I’d want to live and work where I could get some thing quick to eat. They also would be wanting to eat at the Hospital where they have excellent and inexpensive good food.

         I would would want to see the Medical School as close to the hospital as possible and in a location that has other shops and places to live.

         Perhaps the school will have Dorms or will build apartments for the students to rent while they attend the medial school. I would also expect the school to have a cafeteria as well.

         So the one thing that the school can’t provide for itself is a Hospital. That leaves the school located either out by Gateway or by St Mary’s or Deaconess downtown. Of the three Gateway has more land to use to build a medical school. The other’s are land locked and don’t have spare room to build a Medical School Campus.

         So my bet is that IU will opt to build the new Medical School out by Gateway Hospital where they have room to grow.

         Downtown Evansville would be the last place to build a Medical School. Ask yourself why Welbone Hospital went under and had to sell to St Mary’s. And ask yourself why St Mary’s close the old Welbone Hospital down? It’s sitting there now just as a skeleton. The only thing left there is the Deaconess Clinic which is the old Welbone Clinic.

8. First, fix Mesker Amphitheater.

   • I think that should be our top priority, after the Medical School.

     • Agreed. The state of Mesker is a stain on the city. If the city has no intention of fixing it, it needs to be sold before it gets any worse.

9. We should preserve the Roberts land for future use as a park. Since we don’t have the funds now, we should let it grow up into a forest with some walking trails. It would be low maintenance and we can always revisit adding attractions to the park at a later date.

   We should NOT allow this land to be developed. It is a massive tract between two parks and has the potential to create a really neat, large piece of preserved land in the middle of the city. This will be a HUGE benefit for our city and for future generations. Imagine if some cheap jerk would have developed Wesselmans back in the day.

   Once it’s developed, there will never be a park there.

10. The unbelievable debt of the State of California!

    http://californiapublicpolicycenter.org/calculating-californias-total-state-and-local-government-debt/

    Pay particular attention to the percentage of the total debt that is comprised by “redevelopment commissions and special districts”!

    This is why Governor Jerry Brown abolished the State’s redevelopment commissions, there was really no other alternative.

    When I say we need to abolish our local redevelopment commission I am not speaking lightly. Do not wait for the debt to consume Evansville and Vanderburgh county government the way it did the government of the State of California.

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    • http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/mar/03/evansville-officials-approve-lease-arrangement-are/?print=1

      This is what happens to good working class individuals: you get no say in whether to do the project, all you get is the statutory responsibility of paying off the debt.

      And the BS in this article about them not being able to raise property taxes in order to pay this debt is a straw-man argument. They do not need to raise your property taxes to meet the debt payments because they included the County Option Income Tax in the list of revenue sources available to service said debt.

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      • Projects brought to you by the ERBC and run through the Evansville Redevelopment Commission, and, unfortunately, approved by city and county councils. That last part really hurts because these people all too often have forgotten who they were elected to serve. Bankrupting local government is NOT serving in the manner voters expect.

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11. CCO you need to get your “MOLES” at the Civic Center to get you a copy of the report that Mr. Garrett has given city council. The Courier and Press sure won’t.

    Love your new layout design.

12. For the poster above who enjoyed Publix stores in Florida, FYI: Publix is not unionized. Looks like the poster made a pretty convincing argument against themselves and unions as well.

    • AND, Publix prices are higher than any other stores in their areas, on some items as much as 2 to 3 times as high.

      • Not true!

    • I know they are not unionized, the employees OWN it, so they don’t need to unionize. The conversation point was that having employees own the business is the best alternative, and failing that, a union is another good option. Get it now?

      • Then you need to make your point clear. Get it now?

      • Priceless here in Evansville is employee owned. Their prices are competitive and the employees seem to take an ownership approach to customers.

13. I’m also glad this park, which was conceived through dishonesty and bad public policy, is finally being held to the same standard Roberts was.

    I miss Roberts Stadium dearly. I used to think I was alone in that thought but recently I’ve visited some of those who fought for it, talked with neighbors around it, read these message boards and am now convinced there are a lot of other people hurting to. I can’t wait til 2015.

    We need to focus on Mesker, the LST, and the Downtown Master Plan. Not this b.s park.

    I’m very thrilled to see Councilman Friend lead the charge to nix this terrible idea of “Roberts Park” (which doesn’t even have a single dedicated memorial or monument to Roberts). I also appreciate the other council members supporting this measure including SBR and Al Lindsey among many others.

    Anyone who wants to develop the lot is nothing more than a prisoner of the moment. The bottom line is neither the med school nor the parks side of this argument are EVER, and I mean EVER, going to beat the $4-4.5 mil of Innkeepers Funds to renovate Roberts Stadium. They both would stick out like a sore thumb. Now we’ve lost a disaster relief area, a mid-sized arena, a trade show hall, a skate facility among many other things. And for what? A stupid park that isn’t really anything other than a Wesselman revamp?

    • As I said earlier, I think this is at least a 15-20 decision to repair the damage that’s been done. It appears to me that the city is out of money for at least that amount of time. Not to mention, the old central high school lot, the old sterling brewery, the old L&N station lot have been, and still are, sitting as open lots for decades and they aren’t going to be developed any time soon.

      A decision needs to be made on what type of water attractions will be included in a new Hartke Pool complex. I see that decision taking up a good chunk of the southeast part of the lot.

      Also, I predict that UE will reopen the idea of bringing football back in the next 5-10 years. They voted against it a few years ago but I think it will be up for discussion within the next 2-3 yrs iirc. At that point, they will need a new up to date facility. Black Beauty Field isn’t adequate. I really don’t see UE holding off football much longer. With the MVC imploding, a decision must be made.

      There really isn’t a place to build a facility south of the LLoyd. This lot would be the only logical solution. Likewise if UE ever decides to part ways with the city and build a smaller on campus arena facility that many of the boosters have been talking about there would be enough room so long as its basic and nothing huge.

      Realistically, there’s no telling what will and won’t happen between now and the next 2-3 decades. However, I think there is a lot of potentials leads that are worth waiting on such as UE and the our smaller teams like indoor soccer. Heck, this time 2 years ago no one knew about the med school.

      For the time being, an open lot will have do I suppose. I can’t help but feel like it is a good memorial and symbol for what happens when you allow bad gov’t to make decisions. Roberts Stadium, like many of the other open “great lawns” from demolition will never be able to be truly replaced and I’m glad they’re starting to see that.

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