IS IT TRUE February 13, 2014

Mole #??
Mole #??

IS IT TRUE February 13, 2014

IS IT TRUE that some of the bars of Evansville have already exercised the rights granted back to them by the Indiana Supreme Court by its determination that the City of Evansville passed a resolution that violated the constitution with a smoking ban that allowed an exemption for the Casino?…one of those bars is the popular watering hole in downtown Evansville called the Peephole?…the owner who many of us know as a good person who is a pleasure to be around even claims to have polled his customers and to have roughly a 2 to 1 majority expressing a desire for the Peephole to be a smoking bar once again?…the comments beneath his announcement on the Peephole’s Facebook page are more tilted the other way with well over a hundred patrons posted kind words followed by “I will not be back if you start allowing smoking again” or something to that effect?…if the comments are an indication of things to come the Peephole is about to lose a boatload of customers over the decision to allow smoking again but who knows, maybe there are enough smokers to make up for the losses?…time will tell?

IS IT TRUE among the bars in Evansville that have decided to remain smoke free are the Lamasco Bar & Grill, KC’s Timeout Lounge, Doc’s, Phoenix Night Club, Bokeh Lounge and Jimtown Bar?…the ruling by the Supreme Court which the CCO believes was the correct ruling has added a bit of chaos to the City of Evansville on top of the chaos that already rules the place with all of the delays and uncertainties associated with the 5 ½ years of delays of four golden shovel events for a new downtown convention hotel?…the real kicker with the negation of the “split the baby” smoking ban is the fact that the pro-forma estimates of the room rates and occupancy rates of the badly wanted downtown convention hotel just got negated too?…it has been widely publicized in Indianapolis that a smoking ban and only a smoking ban revitalized their convention business?…the biggest assertions on a need for a convention hotel in Evansville are all about the many conventions that will come if only we build a hotel?…if a 1,005 room 4-Star hotel did not help Indianapolis’s convention business without a smoking ban, one would have to be smoking some medicinal marijuana to believe a 256 room Doubletree would help Evansville’s prospects for conventions with people puffing away all over the place?…whatever considerations have been given to the projections for the vapor hotel will need to be revisited with less conventions in the mix?

IS IT TRUE the University of Evansville Aces rushed out to a 25 point lead over Missouri Valley Conference rival Illinois State last night before losing the entire lead and going into overtime?…the good news is that the Aces won the game by 6 points and the bad news is that the student section had exactly 5 people sitting in it during the second half?…the same delusion that thinks some bricks will draw conventions was on steroids when community leaders convinced themselves that a new arena would bring back the crowds for basketball?…GROUPTHINK sessions are some of the most dangerous and delusional places to make decisions?…WINNING SELLS TICKETS and always has?…as we have said many times if UE wins 25 games a year for several years in a row the crowds will be back whether they play in Ford Center, a pole barn, or an empty field?

IS IT TRUE Mayor Winnecke and City Council President John Friend are working together for once to search for a solution to the stricken down “split the baby” smoking ban?…it seems as though they both understand the gravity of the situation of either losing boat money with a comprehensive ban or seeing the prospects for conventions (other than tobacco peddlers conventions) vaporize before a golden shovel event?…the choices are stark and they are the elected leaders who have to choose?…Mayor Winnecke has always been a vocal advocate for banning smoking but is now sounding a bit wishy-washy?…Councilman Friend has always been an advocate for one set of rules for all even when he was casting a YES vote for the “split the baby” resolution?…the bottom line here is these guys have to make a choice and stick with it?…behind door number one is the status quo as of 2006 and a happy riverboat?…behind door number two is a convention hotel and a non-smoking town?…both choices are constitutional but “splitting the baby” is not?…it will be interesting to watch these two elected leaders who fought like the dickens to hold these jobs reach a decision?

IS IT TRUE there is one more uncertainty that may just hurt like the dickens?…that is the question of “would you put a medical school in a smoking zone?”


  1. Has the county’s smoking ban been declared unconstitutional or just the city’s?

    • Next question, does Tropicana allow persons under the age 18 to enter as workers or visitors of Hoosiers Lounge, the boarding area, the individual restaurants and bars located in the Pavilion?

    • I think the boat is in the county, outside the city limits. I figure the county ordinance does not contain an exemption for the casino. So, enforce the county regs on the boat.

      Then amend the county smoking regs to comport with the state regs regarding the construction elements of a smoking area. The casino then can build a smoking facility on the top deck that complies with the state smoking regs, and Tropicana can outfit the smoking area with gaming machines so the smokers will dump more money while they are upstairs puffing away.

      I know people right now who will not board that boat because the whole thing stinks of smoke, even the supposedly smoke free decks.

      Finally, the city can amend their ordinance as the mayor and council see fit. I’d suggest they make the ordinance pretty much the same as the county’s, except with regard to the construction elements of a state-compliant, isolated smoking room.

      If the city’s amended ordinance ends up being a comprehensive non-smoking code, then Hoosiers Lounge, the restaurants, the Pavilion area, and the boarding area (all inside the city limits) then become smoke-free. And if Tropicana wants to provide a climate controlled smoking area associated with the Pavilion, they have plenty of room outside on the plaza area to do so.

      • Agree with Bill here. I knew Evansville’s ordinance would be struck down. Remember, Kentucky tried to exclude Churchill Downs, but the federal courts struck it down way before Evansville exempted the boat! The mayor’s minion attorneys should have seen the writing on the wall. Guess what? Churchill Downs is smoke free and doing well! Bill there are many of us that are sad to see that you are not running against Tom Shetler!

        • Ohhhh, but they won’t make obey the constitution. We Are Evansville. We Special. We got t-shirts and different rules for different people. Looking back this exemption is about the dumbest thing the City of Evansville has ever done. But keep the faith morons, WE ARE EVANSVILLE.

      • If the boat/casino is in the county how did the city ever have the authority to give it an exemption or collect taxes off of its revenue??

        Something doesn’t add up.

        • It’s simple Brains , the politicans in vanderburgh county government are just as
          crooked as the Politicans in evansville city government ,,,,,, also it doesn’t matter whether there is a D or a R ,in my opinion there all the same , honestly I feel there are a few honest ones left .

          • I agree about the lack of honesty, and the party doesn’t seem to matter. Both fish are rotting from the heads down. We really need to treasure the few honest ones and look for some more to replace the dishonest ones.

          • Ok Wayne lets go with that thought, if they’re not crooked then they must be stupid, or maybe you’d like to call them simply self-serving, or maybe egotistical, pompous is certainly a word that describes some of our local politicians, I don’t know tell us how you would describe a personality like Mr Weaver or Ms Mosby?

            Or how would you describe a mayor who one of his first actions in office was to make the “chicken fat” video? or how would you describe a group of politicians who couldn’t find the proper people to balance the city books FOR YEARS!

            Or would you like to tell us just how our current mayor was elected into office in the first place, lots of loyal politicians involved in that process wasn’t there? Or how about tearing down Roberts to build a dog park when the parks department can’t or won’t even do basic maintenance on existing parks.

            Or how about giving money to Earthcare without any vetting? or kicking the CSO problem down the road and spending taxpayers monies on a downtown hotel that private enterprise wouldn’t build because there is no ROI, all the wile infrastructure is crumbling away, or how about operating The Centre at a loss every year it has been in existence? Or how about that naming rights deal for The Centre, nothing underhanded there huh?

            Do I really need to keep going because I’m sure at some point wordpress (CCO site software) has a limit to the length of my post and I’d surly hit that limit before I come close to finishing.

            You know one or two items would be understandable, but it is a endless parade of mismanagement, screw-ups, shady deals, and waste of taxpayers money which does little to build any confidence in our elected officials.

            (and no I’m not giving you my name, I’m not going to run for office, but I will continue to pay my taxes and expect something competent in return other than nice trash cans to push to the curb.)


          • Eviltaxpayer, calling a politician “crooked” is rather harsh. That’s accusing them of felonious criminal activity. As far as I know, we do not have any local politicians under criminal investigation. I understand that it can get frustrating dealing with politicians and we often feel that they never listen to us, but we still need to have civil discourse to move the community forward.

          • How the hell did my comments lead to this poorly informed, reactionary discussion? Please, start your own thread of discussion if you want to carry on like accusatory conspiracy theorists.

            You got proof? I doubt it. Just more speculations. But even if you do have proof, it certainly is not pertinent to a discussion of how the Mayor and Council can reasonably work out a smoking regulation solution.

            Move on, and move forward. Stop being such cry-babies.

        • Yeah,state,and county lines and city limits.



          Sustainable clean water sourcing forward,much larger human applied health “balance and issue” for your areas real apparent infrastructure needs moved forward.

          Actual health related impacts,that are “as supplied” issues “as purchased,or available” through municipal direction, or controls,thereof.
          One can easily make the choice to enter a smokey room, or not,however what choice do you have with your environmental balance with a sustainable clean water supply.

          Clear some smoke,and find some “real issues” that can be solved,”at the levels, that created them.”

          Another message from your “changed climate” which today is speaking quite strongly throughout the countries eastern seaboard,and coastal Wales also on this globe,as well.

          “no problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it” (Albert Einstein)

        • Brains, the original plan excavated the river bank back into the city jurisdiction so that the pavilion and the boarding pass “sales” are all inside the city. That gives the city jurisdiction over the boarding area, hence authority over collection and budgetary control of the “boarding fee” the casino pays to the city.

          Howver, the boat itself was located outside the particular river stage mark that designated the corporate limits way back when Evansville annexed that part of town. The river itself, out to the Kentucky State line (about 200 feet out from the original bank) is in the county jurisdiction. That’s where the boat floats.

          The sheriff used to have a boat patrol for the county jurisdiction. I really don’t know, since I retired, whether the county still patrols its river jurisdiction.

      • I don’t think any part of the boat is in the county. The county ordinance does not provide an exclusion for this reason if I recall correctly. If I’m wrong about this add another paper chase item to the list. The county won’t kill the golden goose.

        The old 2006 ordinance prohibiting smoking in public except bars, private clubs and casinos is the ordinance; the amendment to this ordinance passed that prohibited smoking anywhere but the casino was ruled unconstitutional. The old 2006 ordinance still is in effect sans the amendment.

        • I’m going by the original plans for the location of the pavilion and the boat moorings. It clearly showed the pavilion and boarding ramp inside the city, and the boat floating at its moorings outside the low water mark that was used to delineate the city limits.

          Now, the city annexed that high rent neighborhood down below the Waterworks a few years ago to put that handful of voters into the adjacent city precinct. So, if the city engineer had any foresight, he may have drawn the annexation line to include all the county jurisdiction from Marina Pointe all the way up along Dress Plaza and to the mouth of Pigeon Creek. That way the boat would be 100% inside the city.

          But I don’t think that happened. I may be wrong. But I think the boat remains floating outside the city limits and in the county’s jurisdiction.

          • It is true you have me thinking!

            Kentucky state line became the north low water mark of the river in 1793.

            Federal survey on the future Vanderburgh county was done in 1805 per your old county surveyors site.

            McGary bought section 30 of aprox 300 acres from the federal government which would had border Division, Fulton, state border to the south and a mile east of Fulton in 1812. (need verification)

            Towns original platt was on the eastern portion of this land grant 1810’s.

            Was not the area east of Fulton to the original city limits added at the same time Lamasco was brought in back in the 1850’s?

            You mention low water mark when this area was taken in. Beings this was done pre- river damns, seems in those 60 years there would not had been much change difference. Granted, since the damns been installed and pool stage has risen to push the present low water mark north. I can see where the county river patrols would had happen, but would had that been because east/west sides of the city limits?

          • Yes,Mr.Jeffers, I agree,and right now believe me,both are probably going to have some wet feet,shortly.
            Looking at the Ohio valley drainage signature and the record snow on the ground, it doesn’t look good. Rapid warm ups with streaming weather systems.
            All with increased atmospheric moisture levels for more conductive energy. “Changed Climate”. What I’ve been working to find viable solutions America can adjust with. My goodness, nearly a billion dollars a week across the nation in lost revenues just these few weeks of the winter season.

            Your local infrastructure are not by themselves in the aspect of the span of conditional events up and down the Basin. Huge amounts of melt off, and rain run down is likely coming. While upstream and downstream another minor conditional effect. Frozen ground doesn’t perk water so good. Smaller tributaries,with excessive run down potential and ice logging at bends and pinch points.

            Doesn’t look good as observed right now. The eastern upper Ohio especially,overwash at burst points to the restrictions and localized flash flooding.

            And in your area rapid river rise and backwater incursions. Looking in up there and observing snowfall records going down with 80-140 year standing points makes one hope the improved river system the Corps manage now can handle it.

            Thermodynamics of sublimation through the physical states,Ice,liquid,vapor. The increase in overall vapor held by a warming climate provides the engine,that puts the torque to the streaming weather as we are seeing now.

            Positioning for this now is critical everywhere on earth.

            The UK is taking it in the gut,as well. Most of that has already transitioned to liquid though.
            The Thames is kinda angry over there,focus on the Ohio over here,the transition of state is about to get nasty in the basin I’m afraid.

            Managing this,for each regional basin is basically a first step,it offers needed infrastructure updating,and some long overdue jobs creation,that balances the regional sustainabilities for projected revenues to move forward with.

          • The Kentucky – Indiana line, which was established about 15 years ago by a U.S. Supreme Court ruling, can be viewed on maps at the Surveyor’s office. But right now, that office is all dismantled due to new carpet installation over the weekend.

            You might have a better chance of viewing the line Monday morning at either the Levee Authority or Morley and Associates, who also happens to have the original plans for the casino basin excavation and construction.

          • Rails, also the line is shown clearly on the county’s GIS mapping available for viewing at the County Surveyor’s and the County Assessor’s Web sites. You can see where it runs through the grain fields in the bottoms, along that old slough that used to be the river channel, parallel to Waterworks Road, then through the Marina Point parking lot, and out into the River. The tobacco outlet is in Kentucky, and Marina Point is in Indiana.

          • Good question, Rails, BTW That plan you had to move the LST into the mouth of Pigeon creek wasn’t bad at all that could be a multiple benefit project application,for forward blendings.

            With your present Greenway passage, and what Evansville needs to accomplish to stage for new Metro challenges presented by the “changed climate” the plan, you put up a long time ago does blend right in. (useful advantage)

            That with the help of the Corps Of Engineers if the right planning affect was presented. (Whole basin,flood management forward.)

            I can see that(vision)from altitude,its viable. The Creek there,according to some older relatives of mine once was surrounded by a salvage yard,I think they called it Trockmans,somehow they moved that out and cleared the creek bottom of junk,one story about that was interesting,however. Seems at the end of WWII the Republic factory sent a load of wings and fuselages off the P-47s there on the rails, and some were scrapped,some actually got covered. I remember the salvage yard there, it was just below Franklin,where those “dastardly rails” cross,maybe if someone uses some “LiDAR ground imagining” one could find some P-47 parts. (EVV’s heritage museum.)

            Some history,under an old place called “Trockmans salvage yard”,maybe. 😉

            With that,and an Kleymeyer ballfield restructuring to defeat flood and storm water run off,the north side CSO problem incrementally melts away,as well. (best choices, per viable blending)

            I’m thinking as things begin to melt away this year upstream in the upper Ohio Valley combined with the coming rapid run down from the Wabash river system in Indiana and Illinois things are going to get somewhat ugly for certain. Its already noted that some standing 140 year old snowpack records “are”, on the ground as broken upstream in the Ohio drainage basin. Wow,throw in some changed climate spring rains and the abundance becomes supercritical for the whole Ohio valley system. (Quick warm up is predicted)

            The Ball fields as they are building them would have made a very good location for a two county cooperative flood project to control rapid creek an run off,and the rivers incursion due backwater flooding, and,thus the eastern counties run off and CSO signatures,as well.(real solutions)
            That project,its fill verses flow,will by the planet be shown to be a costly mistake,actually when the North Green River road to Millersburg,section was designed all the problems could have been balanced,for a sustainable solution in one stroke.

            Keep your Ideas flowing vocally, Jordan,as they do project a sensible approach to urban management forward. (urban planning,for the “taxpayers” as a whole unit)

            Ps: Stay on the horse,the dang ground, keeps, getting hard these days.

          • Mr.Jeffers I’ve put some studies to the historicals on the boundary line,you are right the center line down Water works,and the outcrop at the point by the marina,that looks a tad tickled by politics of the last century though.

            The boundary changed (Green river island) after the great New Madrid quake in the early 19 century. Lots of Channels changes,as well.
            The original survey maps of the era,disputes your claim by a few feet I suppose,how that would be addressed today is another toss up.
            When dress plaza was built and the shipyards,as well, the banks were altered out into the realm of the southern state,at the time it was a non issue,and today, it should be the same. Really,who cares, its the unfair smoking policy thats under the scope,not the damned river bank.
            No matter where you can “finagle the border” the ordinance is still not “balanced”,so its “sustainability” is already in question,why waste further funding,and time. Improve your riverfront,don’t stifle it.

            Try the Owensboro approach,geezal pete, if they had a casino, or a boat, you guys would be toast.

            I’d whip out some latin,however ,it bugs the hell outta the “scheme, responder toadies” on the site,no point in that, I guess……

            They likely wouldn’t understand its synonymous meanings anyway.

            BTW, I respect your opinions Mr.Jeffers,they do seem well though out,thanks.

          • V2R, a couple of things: First, there used to be a 40-acre pond at the mouth of Pigeon Creek, and passenger pigeons roosted there by the hundreds of thousands, giving the creek its name. All that has been filled in by various and sundry debris.

            Secondly, the North Green River Road project, from Lynch to Millersburg, could not have been designed to cure all the floodwater woes as you claim. That’s because, even though the design included sufficient high water clearance for the 100-year event, and provided additional waterway openings for the adjacent floodway, the constricted opening where Lynch Road crosses the creek remains the obstruction that backs water up over a vast area of eastern Vanderburgh and western Warrick counties.

            The opening I’m referring to backs up the Q100 run-off over 0.1 foot at the face of the bridge, but as the surplus water stacks up behind that restriction, it raises the floodplain substantially all the way back up beyond Stevenson Station and into the west side of Chandler. So, there is no place in all that floodplain to construct retention or detention basins that would operate effectively during extreme rainfall events.

            As to locating the LST at the mouth of Pigeon, that is mighty close to the channel, and there is a lot of barge traffic making that turn, close to the bank, as well as traffic that moors along that area. I’d hate to see an out of control barge slam into the LST.

          • Mr.Jeffers, Thanks for the “informed” reply.

            I was aware of the ponding area as the founders had specified,know that history well. My family started their business in Evansville in the mid 1830s,on main street.
            They tried eastern Indiana first however came there with the expectation of a boon from river trade from the Wabash Erie canal port,so we do know more about the historicals than one can find in plain recorded history.
            However while researching the stormwater plan I’ve been working on due,Climate Change,Evansville caught my attention due to the massive CSO mandate issue,and my family roots.

            This thing I have developed works towards incrementally solving those issues,anywhere,not just Evansville.

            Actually the closer one is too sea level the more revenue balance you would see. In your county the “mean” start point “down” would be “basically close” to 386/ft.

            The area down by the creek also historically once held a small park with a small island in the pond,people rowed around it for the heck of it,I guess. The Cooks park (beer guys) also had some creek takeoff features upstream,that was local attraction back then,similar to Burdette,kinda. Except Cook had a street car line and some expo buildings for trade show stuff. Prohibition, and that era killed it.
            I heard the country club area along the creek once had summer camps on it,some are still there,as homes.

            The restrictions at Lynch we are aware of as well,that was observed with even more detail during the last strong freeze up and following rain event, big time. Ice jams,at several points as seen from afar. You all lucked out with that,the weather timing ,if off by 7-8 hours would have caused some real flooding issues.

            The Green River Road thing,does also restrict by location,the floodplain fill as referred to there doesn’t help that,it could have though.
            The plan we have discovered and developed while observing these problems works in increments and those applied per location.
            I have a feeling with your common knowledge of the elevations in the county if we were to point these features out on a topographic overlay,or actually from altitude,”you would instantly observe just what an advantage one does have there.”
            This thing has eleven separated applications [phases] per timing to completion,We have some protected stuff a couple of other areas are working with,so that is an issue,per contract offering.

            First areas done, are going to see tremendous revenues coming back and moving forward. Each plan has a unique component due locations and specified needs addressed.
            Face it, your regions is CSO events,and some balanced and sustainable,however affordable clean water infrastructure.
            With very little alteration and some blended construction,the whole multi county floodplain can be controllable forward for other advantages.
            The area along I-164/I-69 would see huge benefits for development,as would the storm water systems in Warricks disputed sewer systems,it would fix northeastern Vanderburgh,and Chandler along with Newburgh’s forward.

            The methodology does lay in a thermodynamic planet science adaptation,however with the resources commonly available today its not complicated,sure works,I have some working models that exceed what I originally thought they could,those were applied with individual,Taguchi type performance testing plans per region of the country,heck they all come in fine,so far.

            If I was to point out the exact land platt and elevation abstracts I’m afraid there would be a cross county free,for all, at the table.

            “Like three starved fellas at the table,two hunks of meat with two forks,and one very sharp knife.”

            Fair acquisition strategies don’t really seem to be your regions fairly balanced suit as observed from afar.

          • “Fair acquisition strategies don’t really seem to be your regions fairly balanced suit as observed from afar.”

            Keen and accurate observation!

            Too much competition and lack of cooperation exists between the two counties that would most benefit from working together to solve a monumental flood plain impacted development problem. Egos before Progress.

          • I had been told that a lot of that low ground
            on the west side of Pigeon Creek from the Ohio to Franklin street was filled in when the “Big Cut” thru Orchard road area when the rail road came thru “Armstrong”

          • Armstrong, you may already know this, but that railroad cuts through the highest ridge in Vanderburgh County. That little pond just west of the cut is the highest body of water in the county at 595 feet above sea level.

            Just a little way northeast of that cut is Henry Lane, across from Apache Pass. At the south end of Henry Lane is a circle where the flag pole used to set for the boy scout camp. That point is 607 feet above sea level, and the highest point in the county.

            All the high points are in the same vicinity there along Orchard Road.

          • Bill: I looked at the GIS map before I asked you the question because I could not determine from the map exactly where the “shoreline” was.

            Is there a monument for fixing the position of the shoreline placed down there somewhere?


          • Press, there are monuments, set by the feds after subsequent to the SCOTUS determination. Several years ago, my chief deputy at the time, Doug McDonald, located some of them.

            But as I told Rails, the best source of current mapping along the river is Morley and Associates, the long time consulting engineer for the Levee Authority. I’m pretty sure that if it’s a casual inquiry, they’d be happy to show you some of their mapping.

          • Bill Jeffers,

            Side note from the suburbs of the town of “Armstrong”.

            If you every get a chance on a cloudless equinox day, be out here at the T-4,T-5 line. (Baseline road), Witness the first and/or last glimpse of the sun on the horizon over the center of the road! The day before, or after it is at the “right of way” edge.

            Coincident, or by plan? Funny how it is Exactly 24 miles from the 1805 Base Line that was use for most of Indiana. Yes, I have seen “Initial point”, Pretty neat.

  2. If a new hotel, or any business, wants to be non-smoking then aren’t they able to be non-smoking?
    Why must there be a law for them to operate this way?
    If the boat thinks their business will suffer without smokers why can’t other adult establishments operate the same way?

  3. Good point CCO Editor Wallace. Located the Medical School in a smoking zone statement should never happen.

  4. I found it odd that people were going on Peephole’s FB page and begging the owner to remain smoke-free. They’re essentially begging to spend their money in his establishment. I’m for owners’ rights and he can choose to go back to smoking, that’s his prerogative. Instead of begging him to reconsider, just go to one of the many places that are remaining smoke-free. I’m going to Lamasco today for lunch to support their decision and because their food is great.

      • I’ve heard good things about Mojo’s. I don’t drink so I’d be more interested in their food. It would be hard to beat the meat loaf plate lunch that I had at Lamasco today.

          • Any place that serves good vegetarian food? Doesn’t have to be strictly veg but a nice quiet place to get comfortable and enjoy a great meal.

          • Yes, PG on Franklin. They have hummus and vegan type stuff. They’re right next to Tin Man.

          • …as far as quiet, that might be a little hit and miss. Sometimes they have poetry readings and open mics, etc.

          • Martha, my brother-in-law and his wife are vegetarians and we go to Cafe Arazu in Newburgh with them. They have several menu choices that are vegetarian and they are one of the best restaurants in the Evansville area. I have never eaten anything there that was not great. Amazing place.

  5. Mayor Winnecke sounding a bit wishy-washy ? Heart be still ?

    Maybe like when he says he is PRO-BUSINESS but then objects to getting rid of the Business Personal Property Tax ?

    The City of Evansville needs to right-size this joint. Some of the sacred cows (Zoo, Convention Hotel) are going to have to go away. Work on reducing the CSO obligation to those still living (vs. the freeloaders who had the nerve to die).
    Fix the water mains. Wake up people, its time for EVERYTHING Before Stadium.

  6. The city wanted to do it’s own thing with the smoking ban. Vanderburgh County’s is comprehensive, so I’m betting it will stand. I never quite understood it since the boat is in Vanderburgh County. Henderson County did not want to get involved in a smoking ban, So the city of Henderson came up with one. And there are only two public taverns where the owners still allow smoking. Although the private clubs still allow smoking like the Moose and the VFW. Non-smoking places are making a profit and smoking places are making a profit. If those elected officials in Evansville really care about public health, they should also exclude smoking on the boat.

  7. Sounds like the Owner of the Peephole bar and the anti-smokers are in agreement, —stay out of his place.

    • Exactly. I’m sure that he’ll still take their money, but it will be on his terms as the owner of the business. The ones begging for him to change his mind remind me of a heart-broken soul that refuses to accept that the relationship is over.

  8. Peep Hole:

    If you gentlemen have some bricks and mortar just laying around not doing anything, cut your baby in 1/2–build a solid wall to divide the bar into a true smoking vs. non-smoking, with separate entrances. Call the smoking one ‘the back door’, with loads of double entendre.

    That way, if a future smoking ban is enacted, all you have to do is ‘tear down that wall’.

    p.s. I am an occasional customer. PeepHole: you charge way too much for your cheeseburgers. Your is close to $ 5, and a McDouble for $ 1 is far better tasting. Come on, man !

  9. If the Facts support that smoking would be detrimental to business, why would the Owners of the Hotel (if it ever happens) opt to allow smoking?–If it’s that oblivious then it follows,–that they would not.

    • The hotel owners should there ever be any can do as they please with smoking. The study we cite regarding smoking laws effecting the convention business negatively are from Indianapolis. If the Indy results are indicative of what will happen in Evansville with conventions, then there will be less conventions because of bad air quality. A non-smoking hotel would suffer financially due to having smoking in bars and restaurants according to the Indianapolis head of the CVB. If Evansville is an island and not subject to human nature then such things won’t happen here.

      • Editor, on what was this study based? Where is the data. We both know data can be digested to fit any agenda. Was there a survey. If so, what questions were asked? If its based on experiences in other cities, what were the other circumstances present in those cities that might suggest a different causality.

        Also, are we 100% sure Ron Hunden wasn’t behind this study?

        I’m sure you get my drift.

        • My thoughts exactly. Funny how most “studies” have a hard time making their data and methods public. Not that the study the editor cites hasn’t withheld such thing, I haven’t gone looking for it on the all knowing Google

          • Here is the article that inspired the comment. It is not a scientific study but does present things differently than some locals may like. As the head of the Indy CVB is of the opinion that banning smoking was his ticket to the big time of conventions it would be interesting to hear what Bob Warren (Evansville CVB CEO) has to say. Vegas is an obvious exception to the rule but that is because the debauchery is so great that people are willing to tolerate the smoke. Evansville is no Vegas or even an Indy. It could be that Evansville is so far off the beaten path that conventions won’t flock to the riverfront for free beer and cigarettes.


          • Joe, you know this argument is non sequitur. This is not a study, it is one man’s opinion based on his success, not in drawing more conventions from national health organizations as a result of Indy’s ban, but merely his claimed success at getting Indianapolis “on their radar”. Evansville will never be on any of these organizations’ radar regardless of our smoking ordinancebecause we are not a big enough city and cannot compete at that level.

            Furthermore, look at what was banned in the Indy ban: bowling alleys, hotel rooms, taxi cabs and most bars.

            I can understand why most conventions would want smoke-free hotels and cabs. So, Indy’s CVB head’s commentary and this entire article are incongruous with Evansville’s current situation.

          • “The city has yet to sign a convention deal due primarily to its stricter law, but Hoops said Visit Indy is in ongoing discussions with 17 of the 90-plus organizations that hadn’t previously considered Indianapolis.”

            “Ongoing discussions” could mean anything. It could mean they sent them a feeler email.

            It makes sense this story would appear in IBJ. Indy is still trying to sell its smoking ban to the public. It will likely be stricken down for the same reason Evansville’s was, the exemption of a downtown gambling facility. In fact, this SCOI ruling effectively did nullify Indy’s ban.

            Also, notice that smoke free airports and taxis were specifically mentioned by quoted conventioneers, but not bars.

            “Visit Indy hasn’t led with a smoke-free message in its paid marketing, but rather used the fact during one-on-one sales calls to potential conventions, specifically those the organization wasn’t able to bid on hosting pre-ordinance, Hoops said.”

            There is a reason they aren’t using this ban loud and proud on brochures, because some conventions could be turned off by comprehensive bans. This wasn’t discussed in the article.

          • Thanks for the link editor. But I had my suspicions about the “study” but worse, you can’t even say the “study” is using pseudo-science, its just one guys opinion. I expected better from you.

          • I don’t even know how to answer that. Not all surveys or studies are created equal. Not all have a stringent data-collection methodology.

            Take your POS survey, for instance; the ‘methodology’ and questions weren’t released in their entirety. Only the summary page was released. Furthermore, the survey was commissioned using a firm that has been caught red handed using devious methodologies in the past. Not a great recipie for trustworthiness, Wayne.

      • One study or survey does not support anything. I’m sure the low cost of hotels and abundant facilities in Naptown, driven by location of the NCAA in Indy and the Super Bowl a few years ago, have something to do with it. The new facilities and the abundant number, quality and price of the hotels are probably the main driver. Especially with the NRA and FFA crowds.

  10. Hey Wayne Parke is Winnecke at about 85% approval rating by now!!! My name is %$#*& (()^$#@

    • Be nice to Wayne Parke , he uses his real name ,he is a politican ,he is more important then we are
      I idolize Wayne Parke. He is my hero , I am just a simple tax payer , I am a sheeple
      ( I must really be drunk or high cause ) I am not sure if I’m 70% drunk or high
      I might even be as much as 85% drunk or high
      In other words Wayne ain’t worth the powder it would take to blow his nose

  11. Let the owner of each drinking establishment decide for him/herself whether to allow smoking.

    That way the patrons will decide whether to patronize the business.

    And give the public to decide whether or not to picket the business for its decision.

    That seems to me to be the American way.

    The Indiana Supreme Court has spoken. Let their last word be the final word, unless the General Assembly chooses to change it.

  12. Firstly, John Friend is duplicitous. That much is clear. I’m actually embarrassed for him. His lack of compass and philosophical grounding has put him in quite the tight spot, deservedly so.

    Secondly, I must once again disagree with Editor on one point… The convention hotel is in trouble anyway. As Berger pointed out in his Brad Byrd interview, one of the supposed draws of a convention, the casino, was already smoking. I challenge the assertion this Indy study has much bearing on Evansville for precisely this reason: conventions are a pie in the sky anyway for Evansville. Always were. That business is on a 20 year decline as it is with no signs of stopping that slide.

    If prospective convention planners cannot look at Evansville and the growing majority list of bars remaining smoke free and have that satisfy their needs, then Evansville wasn’t going to be the place for them even with a full ban in effect.

    The way forward is clear – Evansville’s bar smoking policy is best left alone. The people are voting with their feet and dollars in favor of non-smoking clubs. This is the libertarian answer. This is the FREE MARKET answer. Besides, at this stage, its just good politics to drop this loser agenda.

    • The answer is simple. Drop the hotel. Improve Evansville in many ways using the “hotel money”. Let the bar owners and the city and county grapple with smoking. I suppose that it is not PC but eventually all those who use smoking facilities will no longer be with us. Smokers’ death rates are higher than the general public. Lets shift the emphasis to public health and making Evansville a clean, attractive, efficient place to live. In 15 years, then review the convention issue.

      • That makes good sense. Evansville needs to undergo a good re-prioritization, based on our true strenghths and weaknesses, emphasis on “true”, not pie-in-the-sky. As long as we have the people in charge serving special interests instead of the public interest, we’re in trouble.
        We have to take those new brooms and disinfectant to City Hall next year people. The hard part is going to be finding the right replacements for the current occupants. It won’t do for us to just have a new set of special interests being served.
        I think we’re pretty much at “make or break” time.

        • Great “dual purpose” post. Just replace Evansville with the federal government and ready to go!

      • I agree that smokers pass rather quickly but nursing homes are full of non smokers who have outlived their brains. I think a couple of smoking establishments could flourish in the city. I think the places that say they will remain non smoking are not being truthful and will revert to smoking. I want businesses to just put up a sign, smoking/nonsmoking. I think businesses that allow smoking will pull in more business than non smoking establishments.

        • Is it true those owners/club members “should” be the ones deciding on the smoking issue at their own “non-governmental” business or club?

          Would it be true a smoking/non smoking sign at entrances is a “easy warning” solution?

          Could it be true that those signs might be regulated by the cities “sign Nazi’s”

          Why is it not true that the Vanderburgh County government regulation on smoking be enforced within city limits. When the merger vote was done couple years back, were we not led to believe the city residents were county residents/voters also?

          Is it positively true city government would not give up that duplicating authority on smoking?

    • Brad Linzy: Is it the “libertarian answer” to prohibit an owner from doing what he wants regarding smoking in his business?

      • Wayne, have you had a stroke or something? Read what I said again. The libertarian approach is to respect property rights and allow owners to make their own decisions without the heavy hand of authoritarianism.

        Government policies should focus on education and easing transitions into healthier business practices. Relaxing zoning and building codes to more easily accommodate outdoor patios is one thing local government can and should do.

  13. Mojo’s Boneyard on Bellmeade Ave has always been nonsmoking and will remain so, one of the area’s better music venues and their food is great. I support the bar owners right to run their businesses as they see fit and my right to patronize those that don’t allow smoking.

  14. Cenk covers:

    The Chris Christie scandal
    The strawman/caricature the RW creates about income inequality
    The corruption of money in politics
    The cynicism of the media(not liberal) about fundraising
    How machine politics corrupts
    How the RW uses crony capitalism to say “the earned it”

    All in 10 minutes

    • According to Amy Word, she was waiting to hear from one business before she could officially announce all of West Franklin would be smoke free.

  15. They “earned it” myth blown to smitheerns.

    The study linked High CEO pay to lousy job performance.

    The CEO’s and BOD’s all know it each other, golf with each, other run in the same circles. White power and privilege at its finest. Worse the higher their pay the more they took on terrible value destroying risk. What a perverted system we have.

    The system is SO rigged, with profits private and losses are socialized.

    I guess CEO pay will keep going up until they run out of other people’s money.

    • Try telling that to tommyidiot. He thinks they’re really worth that money.

    • “I guess CEO pay will keep going up until they run out of other people’s money.”

      It takes Brains to make a statement like that. Very very neat and hopefully voter enthusiastic statement.

      But being an off year election, I doubt it.

      So the un-American lazy ass people who don’t get out and vote in an off year election will just have to keep bitching another two years in between putting Doritos in their dumbass mouth.

      • Hey just make up a sweeping generalization out of thin air to justify and rationalize your narrow minded and uninformed position.

        Typical conservative….. Ya see what I did there?

  16. Hate to be so raw, but people who do not participate in the greatest devised system in the world need to have their ass kicked.

    • I agree with you 100%. The amount of money, drugs, alcohol, time and energy spent getting democrats to the polls would take a dent out of the national debt.

      • Tax hate –

        Balanced budget day after tomorrow.

        Thanks for your generous contribution pov.

  17. I drink at the Peephole often and Friday afternoons are my favorite. If they go smoking, I will go to back the old no-smoke haunts with an occasional visit back to Peep to visit my friends who may be there. Sorry, hate the smoke.

    • The deal is already sealed about being bought off Brains.

      I’m fortunately past that and see people on these forums as not being enemies but the only people who make and will make a difference because being on a forum like this (or C&P) means they pay attention and probably 99% vote.

      The only time I get nasty is when someone like howler gets nastier.

      tommiromo pays attention and I’ll take your money if you want to bet he doesn’t vote.

      That makes him not an idiot.

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