Winnecke and Davis both Trash “the Old Boys Machine” in Mayoral Debate


Winnecke and Davis both Trash “the Machine” in Mayoral Debate

The candidates for Mayor of Evansville squared off again last night in what was the final of the three joint appearances that were agreed upon by the campaigns back in the summer. In a well moderated debate where both candidates appear to have a bit of “campaign fatigue” setting in only a few new things were brought to light by the candidates.

Lloyd Winnecke

The opening remarks set the stage for the evening as Lloyd Winnecke came out swinging accusing Davis of wanting to return to the “machine politics of the past”. Winnecke also gave proper credit to Governor Daniels for his leadership in restoring the now well known Homestead Tax Credit that was removed by the inaction of our local government. Winnecke emphasized that the decision to remove the Homestead Tax Credit was driven and controlled by City of Evansville officials who controlled sufficient votes to make this happen without consulting Vanderburgh County officials. Winnecke avoided naming names with regard to the intentional lapsing of the Homestead Tax Credit but most viewers read between the lines that Mayor Weinzapfel was driving that bus.

Davis countered Winnecke’s opening statement by stating that the “Good Old Boy” ways of sneaky closed door meetings will not be tolerated in his administration and that leadership is about more than style. The opening remarks it seems firmly establishes that both candidates have disdain for the “Good Old Boy Machine” that is becoming the scapegoat for the sins of the past in Evansville and that both think their opponent is part of “the Machine”.

Ford Center was the topic of the first question and both candidates expressed optimism and hope that the state of the art facility will bring enough prosperity to downtown Evansville to justify the $128 Million that it cost to build plus the added costs of associated projects. While Winnecke was very optimistic and stated that the Ford Center will complete the revitalization of downtown Evansville, Davis was more cautious and stated that 3,500 people per game for the Aces and Icemen will not be enough and that more than 10 concerts per year will be necessary. Both candidates will be in the stands when the Aces play Butler on November 12th.

The Local Option Income Tax increase was the next topic breached with each candidate vowing to concentrate more on reducing spending before considering raising taxes. The time allocated for this question was mostly spent on another volley regarding the Homestead Tax Credit where Davis actually called Winnecke a “Liar” over his interpretation of events. Davis did raise an interesting an often forgotten point that the Homestead Tax Credit actually was taken away from the people of Vanderburgh County and that he as Treasurer had to reissue the tax bills after Governor Daniels intervened to restore the credit. It was also mentioned that refunds were distributed to those homeowners who had paid their taxes in full before the Homestead Tax Credit was reinstated by the Governor.

Both candidates agreed on the following question that was directed at the recent incident where a citizen of Evansville carried a firearm to the Evansville Zoo. Both candidates expressed support for the 2nd amendment and see proper training of the Evansville Police Department as the solution.

Rick Davis
On the following issue of the Evansville City Swimming Pools not being open according to their schedule and being filthy the candidates agree that more money and/or better management is necessary to be able to provide public swimming facilities to the people of Evansville. The questioner brought up the issue that the Kiddie Pool had been closed for five years and both candidates were obviously ashamed of the cities performance in that area. The issue of the new Howell Pool being closed for filth was slightly addressed in a gentlemanly way without really attributing it to what really happened at Howell. What happened at Howell is that some of our most filthy citizens (probably litterers too) decided to relieve themselves (#2) in the pool. This is a problem that politics will never fix. Should we really need a “Don’t #2 in the Pool” sign?

On the subject of consolidation the candidates legitimately disagree with Winnecke supporting it and Davis opposing consolidation.

The subject of shutting down City of Evansville offices that are “useless” or redundant was next with Davis responding that he would like to hire the best department heads to run the city offices as a customer service organization.

Winnecke advocated for simplification and removal of red tape. He then relayed a personal experience with an unnamed City of Evansville employee where he took on the role of a “secret shopper” and was met with rudeness and disrespect. Winnecke then spoke of a project with a private development where the developer was served a $60,000 negative surprise after things were rolling on the project due to poor planning on the part of the City of Evansville. Davis’s rebuttal simply stated that he had never experienced rudeness in the Civic Center.

The subject of offering same sex benefits for City of Evansville employees was addressed the same way by both candidates with each expressing a willingness to consider this benefit if the economics of the situation could be justified.

The next to last question of the night was with respect to what each candidate would like to be looking back on after three years in office. Davis took the opportunity to state that he would like to see the Combined Sewer Overflow problem that is estimated to cost between $500 Million and $800 Million to be well understood stating that the EPA had busted the City of Evansville for not providing a sufficient sewer system to keep #2 out of the street when a “gullywasher” came down. He also stated that he would like to see the Evansville Aces in the Sweet 16 of March Madness and that lots of good and affordable concerts would be at the Ford Center.

Winnecke also addressed the CSO issue while adding that he would like to have led the effort to eradicate litter in Evansville and will have begun to see tangible results from his jobs plan. He also stated that he hopes to restore a voice to the people of Evansville in how the city is run.

The final question of the night was regarding what should be done with respect to the flare up of gang activity in South Evansville. Winnecke responded first and spoke about a recent ride along that he did with EPD officers to the area of town that is plagued by gang violence. He admitted to seeing many young people just hanging out on street corners and that the atmosphere was simply not inviting. Winnecke stated that the people of the neighborhoods and the churches of the community should be heavily involved in a solution. He also spoke of some research he had done into how Peoria has handled a similar issue with an unmanned assault vehicle with cameras and other monitoring equipment being parked in these neighborhoods reducing the crime rates.

Davis cited how a bad home life leads young people to join gangs and that some of what we are seeing now is related to the bad economy. Davis also cited neighborhood associations, the ministry, and the Boys & Girls Clubs as important part of a solution to gang violence.

The closings were opportunities used by both candidates to bust on each other for being visionless, playing on fears, and being part of the “Old Boy Machine”. Davis in his closing produced a newspaper article that reported that Winnecke cast the deciding vote to end a Welfare to Work program while Winnecke stated his intention to maintain a positive attitude and demeanor going forward.


  1. Davis simply needs to point out the following, which will be a bit easier after Oct. 21:

    1) Winnecke has the same donors as Weinzapfel
    2) The Dem machine is suppporting Winnecke
    3) Winnecke said that if Weinzapfel were running again, he wouldn’t enter the race because “he agrees with Weinzapfel’s agenda”

    It’s clear who the Machine candidate is.

    BTW–any truth to the rumors that Winnecke has cut a deal with Mark Owen to switch parties if he wins the election? Republican voters deserve to know the truth on this.

    • Is there any truth to the rumor that Rick Davis cut a deal with Nick Hermann, former Republican party chairman, to splinter the Democrat party, and Rick’s security payment was working against Stan Levco last year, Nick’s first payment was hiring Rick’s sister followed by having Andrew Smith, with whom Nick was inseparable during Smith’s 2007 sewer-oriented campaign, to endorse Davis this year?

      • Once again, you fail to answer the obvious question: “Why?”

        Davis does NOT benefit by a fractured Democratic party. Of course you and your master Mark Owen know this, which is why you have done everything in your power to destroy Rick since he dared stand up to “Little King Jonathan.”

        Winnecke, on the other hand, DOES benefit by switching parties. Not only would he be guaranteed re-election, he could potentially stand as the Dem’s candidate in the re-drawn 8th district, which just became slightly more Democratic in the 2011 redistricting.

        If anyone out there has any actual information about this, please post it here or send it to the CCO. The rumor could be false, but it is out there and it makes too much sense to dismiss…

        • Totally rediculous rumor. On the other hand, people who know Rick know the truth about his inflated ego, his never ending vendettas for silly and manufactured conspiracies, and his pack of followers who are using him to advance their own meritless fortunes.

          • Well, he is GOOD at deflection. Look how many times veracity avoided going to court over his failing to never obtained a driver’s license.
            Mark Owen only hires the best!

          • Okay here it is straight up. Rick Davis could not win the Dem. primary without fracturing the Dem. party. He started this four years ago, at that time to prepare for Dan Adams to run against Jonathan Weinzapfel. You seem to be close to Davis. Ask him.

            The plan in 2008 was to run Adams against Weinzapfel. Rick and Adams had a group of disgrundled firemen organized when Davis ran for county treasurer. That was their core group. Then they co-opted the U of E Young Dems since Davis had alienated the USI groups after his silly spat with Ray Hoops over campaigning on campus.

            Then Adams, Davis, and Paul Bitz formed the JFK Club to raise funds so their fractious activities would not depend solely on Adams’ retirement funds. The JFK Club was billed as a “Community Service Corps” but what community service have they completed? None. Just like Davis’s plan to use a youth corps to clean up the parks during the summer. Won’t happen either.

            Anyway, Rick then assigned one of his county employees to send out monthly meeting notices to JFK members. The notices appear on email during normal business hours, by the way, so what does that say? The JFK Club has an annual fundraising picnic, donates to candidates who abide by Rick and Bitz’s rules of engagement, which of course is to fracture the local Dem. party sufficiently for Rick to get the nomination in the Dem. primary since Adams decided it’s easier for him to park on a council seat and act like the Pompous Prince of Purity.

            Problem is, Davis has been totally unsuccessful outside of the Westside with his program to oust Dem. incumbents. Yes, he was able to dismantle the Mosby machine in Perry Township, but his only inroad into the Mosbys on the Eastside has been D-d-d-d-d-donny. Big deal.

            Then after the primary, Davis tried to patch things up. Didn’t work out for him. He had gone too far. Now he’s faced with a fractured 6th Ward Dem. base, a fractured 4th Ward Dem. base. The 3rd Ward is up for grabs. He might do okay in the 5th. But he has no chance of winning the 1st, and winning the 1st Ward, and that will be the key.

            Maybe he should’ve chose a headquarters location a bit farther east than West Franklin Street, but then way out there on West Franklin Street he had perfect access to his favorite venue for drama and disruption – the Fall Festival – and true to form he used it just for that.

    • You two are really going at it posting the same rumors on both the C&P and the CCO, in fact twice on the CCO? (party deals & switchers) The question is…..does any adult who has a brain think that in our local political scene that there is a significant difference between a democrat and republican? Today there seems to be two factions running for mayor, that would be the machine backed candidates and Mr Davis’s group to look at it any other way is just hiding from the truth.

      It makes no difference to the machine politics if you are a republican or a democrat the machine has and always will cross party line for the good of the old boys club’s benefit, power hungry control freaks don’t have a political badge that is of a certain color or affiliation, the old boys club transcends well beyond party boundaries, that’s it’s strength and power base.

      Winnecke knows who is supporting him, he knows he is being helped by the machine, he also knows Davis is an outcast that scares the hell out of the old boys club. When Winnecke calls Davis part of the old boys club it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black and a failed attempt to divert attention away from the machine democrats that are openly working against Davis and for Winnecke.

      It would make no difference today if Davis was a republican candidate and Winnecke a democrat candidate other then the machine democrats could openly work for Winnecke instead of behind closed doors as they are now.


      • Regardless of which party Davis happened to represent, they would have a one trick pony … Rick “Homestead Homey” Davis.

        • Winnecke voted to do away with the rejection threshold for the citizens living in unincorporated Vanderburgh county.

          He failed to understand that there are two separate political entities involved in the process.

          If you doubt that I am right, just ask all the citizens living in unincorporated Vanderburgh county to show up at the polling station to vote in the city election and see if they are allowed to vote!

          It is another case of Weinzapfel instructing Winnecke on what he was to do. The puppet and his master.

          Go ahead all you county residents living outside the city limits, show up to vote in the city election, I dare you!


          • Winnecke would not take care of his county constituents, and will not take care of city constituents either if he is elected. He answers to the ole’ boy network, the elitists who see no reason to spend their money as long as they can spend yours first.


  2. Veracity:

    Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate it.

    I don’t know all of the insider history, so I’m not really in a position to dispute it. Frankly, some of what you said makes perfect sense to me given things that I have heard from both sides over the years. I do know that Weinzapfel and his apparatus went all out to try to defeat Adams back in 2007…which didn’t work very well. Weinzapfel was quietly helping Joe Kiefer in that race, which is one reason why Kiefer was the lone Republican who didn’t sign the Sewers Before Stadium pledge.

    Adams proved too popular, and the Democratic tide was too powerful, so pretty much all the Dems won.

    The only thing that surprises me in your post is that Davis tried to patch things up after the primary and was rebuffed. Honestly, the smart thing to do for both sides would have been to bury the hatchet. If Larry Aiken and/or Red Mosby were still around, they’d probably have found a way to make that happen…Too many dimwits at Dem-Central these days. Louise Williams is the only one with a brain, and they don’t let her call the shots.

    Here’s how I see the race shaking out Ward by Ward:

    1st Ward:

    Winnecke landslide. The 1st Ward is the Republican heartland, and Winnecke is a 1st Ward republican.

    2nd Ward

    Davis wins by a decent margin. The 2nd Ward has been trending more and more Democratic over the years, and I see nothing that will reverse that trend. It’s socio-economic. I suppose Mosby will pull SOME dem votes away from Davis, but not too many.

    3rd Ward

    Davis landslide. This is blue collar, white Democrat territory. There’s no way these Democrats will switch over for a country club Republican like Winnecke.

    4th Ward

    Davis will clean up in the 4th, despite Louise and Connie’s best efforts. 4th ward dems just don’t split tickets. Ask Andrew Smith about that. The only question is whether they will show up to vote…

    5th Ward

    Winnecke wins the 5th, despite the fact that it has been trending Democratic over the last 4 or 5 cycles. His strength in the 5th is one reason this race will be so close

    6th Ward

    Davis landslide. I don’t care how “split” the leadership is in the 6th, that is straight-ticket union Democrat country.

    Barring some major blow up (and, I have to admit, this incident with Jarvis and Hubbard has me a little nervous), Davis should win by about 4-5%. The city is simply too Democratic (and too rife with straight ticket voting) for the 1st Ward Republicans and the Dem Machine to elect a Republican mayor, imo.

    • Joe Kwiefer? What a joke. He is too stupid to see through Weinzapfel’s head games and so full of himself that all he wants it to hold elected office just for the sake of doing so. Say it loud, he’s dumb and he’s proud.

    • Truth is, you and I probably agree on more than we disagree on if all were taken into account. We both got too involved in throwing rash statements at each other this morning. I believe mine are based in fact, even if they read like a rant. We both should try more to explain our theories using facts and history to back them up so readers understand better where we are coming from.

      I did not have time to go into great detail about Davis’s 4 year long attempt to divide and conquer the Dem. party and then placate its base sufficient to win this election. Suffice it to say, he succeeded in fracturing the party structure sufficient to disable the normal course of events up to the 2011 primary. He has been unable to heal the wounds he caused and will probably suffer defeat in the general election because of that and because he has gone way over the line with chronic negativity and political retributions at the expense of giving the voters something concrete and positive to expect if he were elected.

      Truth is, I fully appreciate your ward by ward assessment of voter loyalties, but I happen to disagree with the outcome you predict. You show clearly that you are fully aware of the general realities of Evansville politics, and may even have run for office or participated in some capacity in a hotly contested local campaign. If so, you know the comparative percentages of voter turnout precinct by precinct, Democrat precincts compared to Republican precincts. True?

      Truth is, you must acknowledge the Republican turnout runs 75% to 90% of registered voters in a Republican precinct while the Democrat turnout runs roughly half that in general, again when examined precinct by precinct, right? Plus what effect will the change from precinct polling places to regional voting centers have this November when precinct committeemen are not involved in get out the vote “initiatives” would you say? (There’s way more to this part of the story than can be discussed here.)

      Finally, and bottom line truth, if you examine historic mayoral election numbers, you will find that Ward 1 voters turn out in such overwhelming percentages, especially compared to every precinct in Ward 4 and the Democrat precincts in 4, 5 and 6 that no mayoral candidate of either party has won without winning Ward 1. That’s the truth, check it out.

      Therefore, even in your own ward by ward assessment, Davis loses this race by the numbers.

      • Thanks for the considerate reply. I definitely got too rash this morning. The final weeks of a campaign will do that to you, as I’m sure you know!

        Your information is probably better and more accurate than mine, since I have actually not been directly involved in Evansville politics for some time now. I keep tabs, but that’s about it. Of course, nothing has really changed in the last 30 years, so I haven’t had to make a continuous study of it! LOL.

        You are right about turnout percentages, although GOP turnout in municipal elections has been trending steadily downward over the years. Probably because the hardcore Republican voters who lived in the 1st and 5th wards have all moved to the county. I’m not convinced that GOP turnout will be decisive for Winnecke this year. There is definitely an element within the local Republican party that isn’t in love with Winnecke, which is probably why you saw Smith’s letter. Not a BIG element, mind you, but a group of some of the most committed campaigners and workers.

        What I will say is that this is looking almost like a Perfect Storm of events for a possible Winnecke victory:

        a) divided Democratic party? check
        b) strong Republican environment? check
        c) unified money on the GOP side? check
        d) media likely to be supportive of Winnecke (including C&P)? check
        e) strong possibility of stupid, emotional screwups by Davis? check

        This is pretty much the same environment that allowed Russ Lloyd, Jr. to squeak in by ~500 votes.

        The problem is, that was 12 years ago, and the GOP base has continued to decline (especially in the 5th and 2nd Wards) during those 12 years. I’m betting that if you re-ran the Russ Lloyd vs. Rick Borries race again today, the outcome would be different. Borries would probably win by around 500 votes simply due to demographic changes in the city. If I’m right about that, then it really doesn’t matter what the setup is: the Democratic mayoral candidate wins every time.

        But hey, I could be completely wrong. As the saying goes, “that’s why they play the game,” right?

        Thanks for turning this into an enjoyable discussion. No matter what, you have to hand it to the CCO for providing a forum for this kind of REAL discussion.

        • Truth is, your assessment of the Republican movement from city to county residences in the past 10 to 20 years is accurate. (The city only vote for Troy Tornatta was about 1,500 ahead of Marsha Abell, yet she trounced him out in Center and Scott) However, the recent annexations into the 3rd and 5th wards may have demographically recaptured some of that migratory vote, but not as much as what escaped the Demo-urbanite clutches out into Scott and Center.

          Fact is, your example of Borries vs Lloyd is truly pertinent not only on account of 1st Ward/Repub. element (Borries came out of the inner and near inner city well over a thousand votes ahead of Lloyd before the 1st Ward precincts came to the counting room, yet lost by just over 500 votes when Ward One vote count was complete), but also due to one other comparison – MacDonald Jr. didn’t endorse Rick Borries.

          Of course who knows what effect a Weinzapfel endorsement of Davis would have! Either way, Ward One vote remains a key element.

          • I agree on all counts.

            The whole key to victory for Winnecke is to drive 1st Ward turnout. That is getting harder and harder to do in municipal elections, but the general Republican mood right now will help him significantly.

          • “Of course who knows what effect a Weinzapfel endorsement of Davis would have!” (veracity)

            * * * * * * * * * *

            The kiss of death would be my guess.


          • What is both of your opinions on the annexed areas? From what i’ve looked at, it is mosty commercial area, condos, a few small neighborhoods, and apartments.

          • @curiousgeorge: yes, except for the single family residences along Old Boonville Highway and the Country Trace Subdivision, the majority of the population in the areas annexed in the past 4 years lives in apartments. There are a couple of condo developments. The rest is heavy commercial, and a spattering of agricultural left. Apartment residents historically contribute a light voter turnout.

            I don’t know what the other two commenters think, but my opinion is the heaviest turnout in the newly annexed areas will be from Country Trace Subdivision and the over 55 apartments developed by Spurling behind Schnucks Market off North Green River Road. You could look at the previous vote numbers for that former Knight Township precinct to determine those voter leanings in past elections, but my memory is that was a swing precinct.

          • Areas north of Morgan Ah were not annexed. Evansville just took over fire protection

          • Better check again, Mike. The area between the Expressway and Morgan Ave and from Royal east to Warrick County was annexed first. Then everything in Knight north of Morgan and east of Pigeon Creek out to a line that meets Hirsch Road then wanders down thru that section to Lynch and out to Old Boonville Highway was annexed a couple years ago. There’s a court challenge involved, but all those people living in the area I just described were able to vote in last May’s primary if registered, and have been assigned to vote in the 5th Ward again this November.

    • Winnecke is going to lose largely because of the homestead credit issue. I’m fine with that, he should suffer the consequences for his actions. He is also on the wrong side of the rejection threshold issue. That was shoved down the throats of residents living in unincorporated Vanderburgh county, just like the arena was shoved down everyone’s throat.


      • Truth is, there were two other county officials in the homestead credit meeting who were elected handily in 2010 with significant plurality of votes. Apparently, Evansville voters are willing to forgive and move on with their lives. It seems there’s always a few holier than thou types who have a hard time with the fact that we’re all human.

  3. Please Define who are the good ole boys. You throw this around but fail to say who belongs. Our inquiring minds want to know.

    • Here are a few, Others can fill in with more.

      Jonathan Weinzapfel
      Curt John
      The Bettys (one republican and one democrat)
      Jack McNeely

      Supporting cast but too dumb for leadership

      Missy Mosby
      Connie Robinson
      Don Walker
      B J Watts
      Joe Kwiefer
      Lloyd Winnecke
      Steve Melcher
      Matt Meadors

      Add to this list at will please.

      • I would add these:

        Ed Hafer
        John Friend
        Niel Ellerbrook
        Jeff Knight
        Mark Owen
        Alan Braun
        Linda White
        Joe Wallace
        Bob Jones

      • LOL….I don’t seem to see Rick Davis or any of his team on the list, it would seem Winnecke did make the list so that would make his comment (saying Davis was) last night at the debate a lie.

        Interesting also is I don’t see Steve Chancellor on the list, Evansville too small time?


        • blanger
          Walker, Melcher are both on the Davis team along with the democrat Betty. You just forgot those people, just like Alex forgot his court date.

          • LOL….sorry.

            Technically though I’d guess all the democrats are suppose to be on Davis’s team, but we know that’s not the case. 😉


          • Woopsie … sorry … technically Rick Davis supposed to be on Democrat team past few years but we all know that was not the case either.

      • Here’s how I would lay it out:

        The Powers: These are the people who actually control what happens in Evansville political and economic life. They tend to remain behind the scenes, acting through proxies or managers (see below).

        Bob Koch
        Neil Ellerbrook/Vectren
        Bob Jones/ONB
        Andy Goebel
        Jack McNeely
        Alan Braun
        Englebrecht (questionable)
        Carol McClintock

        The Managers: These are the Apparatchiks, the ones who see to it that the agenda of the Powers actually gets done, by any means necessary. They don’t generally control the money or overall strategy, but they are the ones who do tactical planning, the intimidation, and the political maneuvering needed to implement the strategy.

        Mark Owen (D)
        Jeff Knight ($)
        Marco DeLucio ($)
        David Jones (D)
        Ted Zeimer (R)
        Lloyd Winnecke (R)
        Bettye Lou Jerell (R)
        Ed Hafer ($)
        Curt John (D)

        The Sock Puppets: These are the public officials who take their orders from the managers. They cast the votes, talk to the media, and generally are the “face” of the machine.

        Jonathan Weinzapfel (D)
        Connie Robinson (D)
        Troy Tornatta (D)
        Jonathan Weaver (D)
        Missy Mosby (D)
        Matt Meadors ($)
        Joe Kiefer (R)
        Mike Duckworth (R)
        John Friend (D)
        Suzanne Crouch (R)
        Eric Williams (D)
        Brad Ellsworth (D)
        Brad Hill
        Keith Jarboe (D)
        Susan Kirk (R?)
        BJ Watts (D)
        Tom Shetler (R)
        Mike Goebel (D)

        • You are clearly a Democrat. Only a Democrat would think that Tom Shetler, Mike Duckworthy or Bettye Lou Jerell were even remotely worthy of being on a list like this.

          The real movers in the GOP are an entirely different group of folks not even listed here.

          • Tom Shetler and Mike Duckworth are both just mouthpieces. They get their orders from higher up.

            Bettye Lou Jerrell has kind of dropped off the map lately, but she was definitely a key Manager for a long, long time.

  4. Sad thing is, more and more people are saying they are not going to vote and be “responsible” for the next mayor. Stupid logic, I know! WAAAYYYYY too much mud and S#!t slinging going on. Should we have a write in option on the ballots?

    • Love the screen name. And if you still can’t find your car, Justin Alex Jarvis has one for sale. He just needs enough money out of it to cover his fines, costs, and legal fees.

      • No he doesn’t need that extra money. His buddies will take care of his fines, I’m sure. They have extra cash lying around that they haven’t yet given Winnecke, right?

        • they moved the court appearance til after the election so they can just get them dropped, no money involved

  5. I have really enjoyed these posts…face it Vectren, Industrail Contracters, St. Mary’s, Ziemer, Stayman, et al. These are the interlocking elites that have acted like a cancer in this town, driven business away and sold the manufacturing base to the 3rd World…
    Now onto The Evansville Courier…

  6. And today pushed to the future you morons haven’t changed one iota.
    Knew that then, and still know that now —–> 1 /29/15 <—- everybody knows that yeah but did you know, the cities sewers are still bubbling crude every time it rains a little?
    Heh, heh, heh…………….. Donkaphants.

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