The Evansville Convention and Visitors Bureau announced today that a study that was commissioned to be done by VPS Architecture in April is complete. The study has shown that the best solution is to build a new 8 ball field complex on approximately 60 acres that will cost between $10 Million and $13 Million.
The Roberts Stadium site is not under consideration and it was not disclosed whether the estimated cost included the cost of the land or not.
I want I want I want I want I want Let’s worry about paying bills before blowing more money , next thing they will want to tear down Roberts Stadium so dogs will have a place to POOP and PEE. What a bunch of pooping idiots in our local governmeny
Idiots.
What else can I say?
We’d rather SPEND $10 MILLION tearing down a surplus structure and building more of something else we also have a surplus in (parks and ballfields) than sell the thing. We are being led by retards and self-serving pirates.
The term “retards” is not correct in use. “Developmentally Challenged” describes those involved.
I tend to use the vernacular in describing the hopelessly foolish.
I can see how calling Mayor Winnecke, for instance, a “retard” could be insulting to the developmentally challenged.
I’d prefer “intellectually challenged” but retards does work for this situation. 🙂
JMHO
Please cut out the use of the term “retard.” It’s just as offensive as racial or ethnic slurs to those of us that are touched mental disability.
How about the Italian “ritard” as in “slow” (musical usage)?
Where did they find these people, at an insane asylum? Where does it say that you have to spend a city into bankruptcy just because you can. How pathetic are these people? Why can’t they just go away?
There are already plenty of ballfields in this whole area.
Yes, but there aren’t enough construction projects for the Indianapolis cronies to line their pockets with.
Brad…..
That looming big ass combined sewer/water main project should more than suffice to take of both the Indy & Evv cronies to new profit levels, by the time you figure in the 600 miles of water lines we are well over a billion dollars, shades of the big dig in Boston is what I’m thinking. 🙂
JMHO
One might be inclined to think that should be enough to satisfy even the most rapacious of political cronies’ appetites. One might be also inclined to believe that the resulting feeding trough created by the EPA mandate would quell the cronies’ Hungry Hungry Hippo-like appetite for tax dollars for a long period of time.
It is, however, likely closer to the truth to say their Hungry Hungry Hippo appetite is bottomless, and that the proposed spending on relatively “small” projects like Roberts Stadium demolition are just tasty appetizers that prepare the table for the larger feast to come.
I have to wonder what’s in it for Mayor Winnecke… What is this needless spending buying him?
I still like my definition best , pooping idiots
He knows he’s got to make his mark quick, no second term. Making his mark meaning bilking the sucker.
For the 1,000th time… Build them at Kleymeyer. It’s already owned by the Parks Dept and its one of the only lots big enough in the city limits for this development project. It is also the last hope of making Bosse Field everything that it can be.
Is it true that Kleymeyer Park is located in a relative dead zone with regard to upscale restaurants, and newer national franchise food chains that people now find more appealing than Grandys and Long John Silver? That there are no hotel or motel facilities nearby other than that one flophouse south of Hacienda?
Is it true that Kleymeyer Park also is not conveniently accessed from I-64 or I-164 (soon to be I-69)? That all in all, Kleymeyer Park’s location is unfit for a tourist destination?
Is it true that there is ample available land surroundng Goebel Soccer Complex? That an even better location with regard to Interstate access is the Martin Development land between Virginia Street and Oak Grove Road east of Burkhardt and strattling Cross Pointe Blvd.?
Ah yes, the lifestyle center, that $200 Million+ place with high end stores, a medical campus, and luxury housing. What a place for ball fields. It was more productive as a farm.
It still operates as a farm, and there is zero out there in the way of a lifestyle center and the other things you list. However there is the new YMCA across Oak Grove Road, and plenty of decent hotels, motels, and restaurants.
@ Izzytru
Where do I start…
For restaurants, you conveniently left out Angelo’s, Milano’s, Just Rennie’s, Aztar complex, DiLeggi’s, and Turoni’s not to mention Main Gate who had the nicest waitress you could ever ask for.
As for hotels, Kleymeyer is right down Diamond from the same hotels that would be used at Hamilton, not to mention the newly refurbished Aztar and the soon to be built Arena Hotel which should take priority as it is taxpayer funded.
As for access, First & Diamond are fine (perfect baseball names) as well as the LLoyd and 41.
As for the complex, I’m pretty sure softball teams would like to play in vintage MLB style fields with the championship game being played on the same field where the movie A League of Their Own was filmed. That’s why the South Georgia Waves were going to use it for that purpose.
And since Connie Robinson says she would like to see more diversity, we could replicate one of the fields to look like Ebbets Field where Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier…
http://www.bigleaguedreams.com/replica-fields/ebbets-field
The African-American Museum could sponsor a Civil Rights tournament there every April just like the Cincinnati Reds and Memphis Redbirds do.
Another field could replicate Yankee Stadium which would pay tribute to Mattingly whose youth field is in Garvin.
The fields would pay huge dividends for the Otters, Walther’s Golf-N-Fun, Garvin Park, Turnoni’s, and yes the Ford Center complex. But most importantly, there is already a company who does this taxpayer free…
http://www.bigleaguedreams.com/corporate/park-development
Slapping 8 dull and boring fields out in the middle of nowhere is not the answer to this!
I see a snippet of a claim on that website about there being “no taxpayer expense”, but I fail to see how they achieve that promise.
There are no details on that site about how a real world deal would actually work. My guess is, taxpayers pay the upfront cost of development (which the company conveniently provides, I’m sure), then the City leases the venue to that same company for a lengthy period to manage and promote. How is there no upfront taxpayer cost to that?
The reality is that it is all tax money but not from a local levy. It is from the Innkeeper’s Tax that is paid when people rent hotel rooms. That is how they can claim that it is not from “local” taxpayers. Now when I go to other towns they have Innkeeper’s Taxes too so I pay them, I just don’t pay them here. Evansville people pay Innkeepers Taxes all over the country and the people from other places pay them here. This is typical government slight of hand in my book. Hotel rooms all over the country are more expensive because of this SNEGAL little trick. People are dumb enough to buy into it too.
How they plan to get the large amount of money is by bonding the cash stream from anticipated Innkeepers taxes going forward. Two years ago the limit they could borrow was $18 Million and thus that is what they wanted to spend. It is really just maxing out the credit card from the bank of the innkeepers tax to buy 8 ball fields. They do have the option of saving up and paying cash. That would never satisfy the instant gratification needs of government and its surrogates.
I agree, Joe. And you and I both know, as students of Friedman, that this Innkeeper’s Tax merely robs from the innkeeper’s business by placing an undue burden on its customers.
If Evansville truly wanted to promote out of town visitors and recreational development, it would simply lower its tax burden and regulatory hurdles across the board to attract as many diverse businesses as possible, and ensuring a weekend stay in Evansville was competitive from a price perspective.
And thinking about this scenario logically for a minute, what entitles a City to identify a specific type of business activity like innkeeping and declare it can levy a special tax upon that economic sector arbitrarily? Why not do it to tanning salons like the Obama Administration has done through the Affordable Healthcare Act? Why not just decide that music stores have to pay a “special tax”? Or home improvement stores?
I realize the argument goes that innkeepers are the biggest beneficiaries of recreational attractions, but if that were truly the case, then the companies who run the inns would invest also in those attractions or enter into private partnerships to develop such attractions privately.
It is obvious to me that the commonplace assumption that government will do that sort of thing actually stifles private companies from venturing into a sector where they think they might have to compete with a government preferred partnership. This bring me to the second reason governments love an innkeeper’s tax… It allows them to give an exemption when they build their Convention Hotel.
@ Izzytru
Where do I start…
For restaurants, you conveniently left out Angelo’s, Milano’s, Just Rennie’s, Aztar complex, DiLeggi’s, and Turoni’s not to mention Main Gate who had the nicest waitress you could ever ask for.
As for hotels, Kleymeyer is right down Diamond from the same hotels that would be used at Hamilton, not to mention the newly refurbished Aztar and the soon to be built Arena Hotel which should take priority as it is taxpayer funded.
As for access, First & Diamond are fine (perfect baseball names) as well as the LLoyd and 41.
As for the complex, I’m pretty sure softball teams would like to play in vintage MLB style fields with the championship game being played on the same field where the movie A League of Their Own was filmed. That’s why the South Georgia Waves were going to use it for that purpose.
And since Connie Robinson says she would like to see more diversity, we could replicate one of the fields to look like Ebbets Field where Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier…
http://www.bigleaguedreams.com/replica-fields/ebbets-field
The African-American Museum could sponsor a Civil Rights tournament there every April just like the Cincinnati Reds and Memphis Redbirds do.
Another field could replicate Yankee Stadium which would pay tribute to Mattingly whose youth field is in Garvin.
The fields would pay huge dividends for the Otters, Walther’s Golf-N-Fun, Garvin Park, Turnoni’s, and yes the Ford Center complex. But most importantly, there is already a company who does this taxpayer free…
http://www.bigleaguedreams.com/corporate/park-development
Slapping 8 dull and boring fields out in the middle of nowhere is not the answer to this!
One would think that a strong, successful and intelligent business person like Ward Shaw of Casino Aztar would nix this fea brain idea!
Here’s goes another back room political deal.
Ten to one that Marsha Abell and the Mayor of Evansville was part of this back room political deal.
Why not build ball fields on the abandoned old Red Course on Hamilton Golf course, now called Thunderbolt Pass?
Because it’s way out in the county. Sure it has plenty of hotels next to it but it lacks retail and it fails to revitalize Downtown.
On the other hand, land swapping Bob Walthers to Hamilton would make a ton of sense.
How about let’s not build them at all and say we did by choosing 8 ball fields that look like hell and fix them up with a whole lot less money.
Market them as a tourney destination for 5 years and if it works then think about a new park that is better than Owensboro’s.
Building ballfields on faith when 2,200 acres of parks look like garbage dumps is just plain irresponsible.
I could go along with that. There’s already 3 fields at Kleymeyer that need the renovations.
I find it interesting how the “debate” tends to be over, not whether to build even more ballfields, but WHERE.
The epic struggle of Evil A vs. Evil B in Evansville may never cease. Maybe Peter Jackson could make a movie about it. It’s like watching two Orcs fight over a Hobbit’s legs.
Brad, the company who designs the fields I want to see built does them taxpayer free, although I agree that if the city ever did decide to build the fields I’m suggesting they would end up using one of their buddies instead…
http://www.bigleaguedreams.com/corporate/park-development
It’s not just the design stage that costs money. It has been said a lot of different ways, but I’ll say it again – Evansville does not need more ballfields. We already have a surplus of them not being used. Why build more of them like we’re Kevin Costner hearing voices in the corn field?
The real debate here needs to be about not WHERE to build a bunch of new ballfields, it needs to be about whether it’s wise and whether we can afford to do it considering our future obligations and current neglect of existing parks and cemeteries.
Big League Dreams does more than design, they run and maintain the property which is in the link I provided.
If built at Kleymeyer, the project would rehab 3 current existing ball fields as well as a park that has been all but left for dead minus a dog park that has no business there. Not to mention it would encourage hot dog vendors and such to take up root in Garvin in between Bosse and the fields.
This really is the best, and maybe only, way to plan for Bosse Field’s future for when the inevitable time comes for a new downtown ballpark.
In a perfect utopian world where money grew on trees and we were not in the midst of what can only be described as a hidden economic depression, I might be inclined to go along with that. But this is not a utopia, Evansville does not run a printing press for printing money, and the economic malaise we are in doesn’t look like it’s coming to an end anytime soon. Times like these, sensible people realize that governnments cannot spend us into prosperity.
Anyway, as a libertarian, I cannot support a government venture such as this. The idea is that such a project improves the quality of life and creates a destination for out-of-towners to entice them to spend money in our fair City, stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants, etc. Believe me, I’ve heard the arguments in favor and found them lacking. My view is that government’s job is simply to get out of the way and let the free market do these things. Government should lower the regulatory hurdles and lower taxes across the board as much as possible. It should reign in unnecessary spending even in times of prosperity and vet every civic project with care and attention to savings.
Everything about these proposed ballfield projects just screams of too much government involvement. We can see in project after bloated project they get involved in efficiency, execution and effectiveness are almost always minimal, while spending of money they have no interest in seeing put to its best use is maximized.
It’s interesting that the Editor chose to post a tribute to the late, great Milton Friedman because his words here are applicable:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Kg2SvsI8Q
Reading the site you linked to… I think the only way I’d support something like that is if the land and business was entirely private.
So if you’re suggesting they use an existing site that is City property, I would only support it if the City sold them the property in an open auction.
It would be leased, just like Mr. Bob Walther’s has been doing successfully in that park since 1977.
Why? What’s the goal of leasing over selling? Government control? Revenue? Guess what though…government is not supposed to run businesses for profit.
What happens when the City enters into a lease agreement, pays all these upfront costs, then the firm goes bankrupt? What then? Are we going to hire the Mayor’s sister’s brother’s cousin to run the thing?
I say, make them invest in the land and sink or swim on their own merits. Public-private-partnerships foment favoritism and protectionism of one company over another. Say, another company wanted to try something like this and compete and decided to buy land and do it correctly without government help…which one would get the favors? Which car company gets government favors now, GM or Ford?
Believe me, I realize how things are done now. I just don’t agree with how they are done on principle. A City government should be there to provide common roads, utilities, police, and fire, which is debatable, but that’s about it. The minute we begin picking and choosing preferred companies by offering huge tax breaks, or creating smoking bans with key exceptions, or entering into partnerships with private entities to provide anything other than one of the aforementioned things, we empower City government to create inequities and undue favoritism.
Where is this development going? The answer is: The old Hamilton Golf course presently owned by the Airport Commission.
Ask Marsha Abell, the Mayor of Evansville and Joe Kiefer about this because they been part of this back room political deal with Convention Group to build this ballball complex for the last 4 months.
Marsha-Marsha-Marsha, your doing it again to the taxpayers of this community. Another Homestead Tax Credit deal!
As a northsider, I think Thunderbolt Pass would be an excellent location for truly high end ball fields that would attract out of towners. There’s plenty of accomodations, and the Northside needs economic stimulation, that’s for sure. Also, the route is directly down U.S. 41 from I-64, and up the Pennyrile as well.
Three problems: #1-There is a 800-foot wide designated floodway within which new construction cannot raise the existing elevation, and all construction requires super expensive and complicated design and permitting processes. #2-FAA restrictions may prohibit high tower lighting. #3-The air board bought the property and shut down the course along Little Pigeon Creek, I think, to limit the number of people using that area, and to establish a safety zone, so to speak.
Soon2b what in the he–are talking about?
I didn’t have any trouble comprehending.
@CCM: I assume you are having trouble with the floodway issues? If so …
The now closed links at Thunderbolt Pass run alongside Little Pigeon Creek. That is where I understood previous County Commissioners and other interested individuals thought about placing ball fields at one time. And I believe that is the only large enough available area to build ball fields at Thunderbolt Pass.
When the idea came under consideration, I believe there was concern expressed by the airport authority about lighting on high poles (possibly an FFA restriction), and about a usage that would attract a lot of people within an area they consider a safety zone … where they prefer to limit population and use due to air traffic patterns.
The floodway issues concern IDNR and FEMA regulations that impose restrictive permitting that is complicated and lengthy to go through, and construction and design requirements that are rather expensive compared to building ball fields out in rural cornfields or atop landfills like Kleymeyer Park.
The regulatory floodway alongside Little Pigeon Creek extends out about 500 feet wide at the north end of Thunderbolt Pass (Petersburgh Road), and about 800 feet wide at the south end of Thunderbolt Pass (near the maintenance barn). Federal and state regulations prevent ball fields, parking lots, or building pads to raise the existing ground elevations within the floodway because the floodway is the area needed to pass the high volume of flow during a 100-year flood.
Also, any foot bridges, golf cart crossings, or car crossings of Little Pigeon Creek in this area are required to pass the 100-year flow. And IDNR additionally would require environmental and habitat mitigation for any loss of wetland vegetation. This can get expensive too.
It’s too bad, because the Northside really could use an economic shot in the arm. North Park is becoming a retail wasteland, and there are really some nice attractions and amenities on the Northside that would benefit from higher user traffic. But fact is, it’s easier to build on new ground (cornfields) than in a floodway (alongside a major waterway or large tributary) or at a brownfield site (former dump or impacted industrial site) which raises all sorts of other regulatory issues.
Does that help you understand “what the hell” I’m talking about?
VCB needs to be investigated for running a “Dope Ring”!
We had a softball complex on Burgdolt road years ago, it was privately owned–It Failed. Does the CVB have more than this one idea?
The complex on Burdolt was an adult softball park. What’s the CVB concept, adult local league softball tourneys or upscale Little League hardball, etc. for travelling leagues? What’s the business plan?
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