IS IT TRUE Weekend #1 (Numbers to think about)

1. What’s with all the demonization of the working poor on this rag lately?

   • Rich people are job creating angels, do gooders, distinguished, illustrious, irreplaceable defenders of capitalism, freedom and all that is good in the world. Republicans are good, Libertarians are the cat’s meow, the pinnacle of true goodness, understanding, and enlightenment. Rich people should be adored and worshipped, we should all be so lucky to be allowed to shine their shoes. Adam Smith is good, Ayn Rand reached true nirvana. The private sector is golden, not subject to the laws of physics or thermodynamics, it never wastes money or time, hurts the environment or other humans. Market failure does not exist.

     The working poor are leaches, scumsucking freeloaders, a millstone around the neck of society. They suck money and time from the productive angels. Democrats only care about them for their votes. Unions are most definitely not a check on unrestrained corporate power, there are bogus and just keep people in their place, and are used by the corrupt union bosses for money and profit. Breaking up unions is essential to uplifting the poor.

     Pro-fetus, pro-gun “Christian” Democrats can be tolerated to be allow to live. Socialist pro-unions Dems are traitors, redistributionist Dems should be burnt at the stake.

     Keynes is an idiot who convinced Roosevelt to follow foolish policies that extended the Depression.

     Government is a complete waste,(except for the military and adventures in colonialism and stripping third world countries of natural resources for pennies on the dollar) even police, fire, schools, and even municipal water and sewer services should be subject to privatization. Only when all government programs are eliminated and govern services are sold out to well connected private capitalists will the poor be uplifted.

     Get it??

     • All you have are strawmen. Arguing with you two is a complete waste of my time, so I’ll refrain.

       • Someone told me the Peep Hole went back to smoking. Too bad. I used to drink there.

       • Brad, There is no arguing with them, as they can’t even comprehend common sense let alone any stats or figures one may present to them. They throw their talking points around and then jump tot he name calling. They can’t rationalize anything else, nor apply any reasoning to their positions. Not only is it a waste of time arguing with them, they are pretty much just wast in general.

     • You totally nailed it, BB! Thanks for saving me a lot of typing. You did it more clearly than I could have, too.

       • To: The Ghost of Tom Joad;Brains Benton;elkaybee;
         V- is-to-R;
         Your comments indicate you are receiving money from taxpayers. That is OK if you cannot help yourself to pay your own way.

         Is that the case?

         • What the hell are you talking about Wayne? I’m a 67 year old woman, who does accept the Social Security and Medicare that I contributed to. I also supplemented my retirement planning with payments into a union pension fund and a private 401k. I’m not rich, but I live just fine.
           Are you planning on refusing your pension, SS, and Medicare?

         • Dear Mr. Parke,

           As the local maximum co-administrator of President Obama’s “Organizing for Idiocy” campaign, I detect a certain amount of sarcasm in your statement “That is OK if you cannot help yourself to pay your own way”. No one should feel under the obligation to help themselves, let alone pay their own way. As true progressives, we believe that people are entitled to comfortable shelter, food and snacks, late-model automobiles, free electricity, cable and internet, no-cost medical care for all conditions including cosmetic surgery and gender reassignments, and adequate supplies of your choice of recreational substances, whether those be alcohol, MJ, crack, heroin, or Ajax cleanser. Chairman Mao said that power grows out of the barrel of a gun. We at “Organizing for Idiocy” believe it also grows out of the barrel of a bong!

           Just because the individuals you name are claiming their rights by receiving government benefits is no reason to snark at them. In this horrible environment that crazies like the Tea Partiers have created where people feel ashamed about taking it easy and enjoying their benefit payments, it is refreshing to see people who are willing to take their rightful benefits and attack the people who are paying for them. So what if they are idle? It’s a free country, isn’t it?–so really that can’t be true until everything that want is free in cost, too!

           The simple fact is that there are Republicans and, alas, so-called “Reagan Democrats” (they are really Republicans) who are fixated on working hard, paying their way, not taking handouts, improving themselves, and helping the poor through charities. We at “Organizing for Idiocy” reject these reactionaries! Let them work as hard as they want, but we will take as much as we want to help support our entitlement to comfortable living without needing to work.

           Mayor Winnecke is, for a so-called Republican, charting quite a progressive path for Evansville. We approve of his swearing eternal loyalty to union shops, gay marriage, downtown boondoggles, and keeping nearly all of former Mayor Weinzapfel’s Democratic appointees. Please have a talk with him before you are tempted to snark again at some great heroes of our local entitlement community.

           J. Coddington “Comrade Hugo” Fetlock IV
           B.S., Affluenza Studies, Hahvuhd 2002
           M.A., Entitlement Studies, Beserkely, 2008
           Veteran, San Francisco Occupy 2010
           Maximum Co-cordinator (with S. Buffy “Comrade Tania” Smithers-Clinton), “Organizing for Idiocy,” Evansville Cell

         • EKB,You shouldn’t have answered the idiot,Its kind of a desperation rant I think. Hell,I’ve been around six decades never drawn a penny,yet
           Heck,I did “earn” a paycheck from the Eagle for a while,while I was in military service sticking my neck out for the likes of that crusty old slug.

           Yeah, I earned every penny of that,as well.

           Sometimes when those fools there get flustered they make absolute spectacles out of themselves.

           You know,its one of the very reasons I have moved more to center with my political support. Some stuff just makes better sense,some doesn’t.
           I knew that when I first started paying into the system with the little S/S card they gave me. My first pay ins go back to age twelve,delivering morning papers. That was earned as well, geez,tough mornings on a bike,in the weather,then off to school.

           Did save enough to buy a nice new car when I was 16,however I worked at allot of things,lots of them,to me working with an elder was fun I felt like it was good fun to learn from those whom offered to teach me,my Fathers friends and customers liked the effort to.

           At my Grandfathers farm we worked all day,because those “chores” needed done, best pay you got on that place was his smile. Grannie,fed us good enough to make up for the sweat.

           Wayne, that sir was a completely stupid comment,be a man for once, admit it.

         • Credit where credit is due. Wayne stepped over the line.

         • I have a succesful small business. Started sitting on a tractor at age 14. Spent many a spring day on an Old International Harvester M tractor for 12 hour days.

           Mowed lawns, painted everything in sight put up hay in 125 degree hay lofts for 3 cents a bail, carried hay to cattle and broke the ice for years put my way through college.

           I have an MBA in finance and economics.

           I was assisstant controller for a large division of a major company for 10+ years.

           I started my own business knocking on doors in freezing cold and blazing heat.

           I made six figures for many years and paid more in taxes than many people make. My business took major hit in 2008 thanks to W the lesser aka Hoover Jr. aka the clueless one and his band of cowboy capitalist cronies and thieves who got bailed out, I DIDN”T.

           You sir can shove it where the sun don’t shine.

         • Wayne, you’re a bona fide moron. The republicans look like fools having you as their chairman. Oh wait, they did anyway.

         • @ V/R:

           You’re right about not answering him. I think he is about to go on my “ignore” list. Some posters are just too ridiculous to dignify with an answer.

         • Wayne Parke
           You need to apologize to these people for your low down comment ,if not please throw me in with their bunch
           cause I draw social security also,
           Didn’t you even stop to think maybe they paid into social security and are only getting what they paid into ?
           Come on man and pull your head out of your ass

         • WARNING!

           /satire on

           And while Wayne insults potential voters the mayor’s approval rating busts through the 100% barrier as county residents weigh-in and wish they had him back on the county council.

           Now Mr Parke can post those unbelievable numbers of 125% approval by not only the entire city but the county also, this opens the door for the unrepresented 200% approval rating!

           __________

           As other people from around the state take up the cause we can expect our mayors rating to exceed 600% sometime before the election in 2016 stated Mr Parke, the youtube chart busting video “Go Chicken Fat” is credited with our mayors statewide appeal, and state Republicans are calling for Mr Winnicke to run for governor and past mayor Mr Weinzapfel is slated as a running mate to illustrate what the two party system can accomplish. (ala 8th district)

           …a spokesman for Mr Winnecke (requesting anonymity) stated that with polling numbers like these he could run for president, no politician in history has enjoyed polling numbers like this….it is the perfect storm!

           When asked Mr Parke stated that the phenomenal polling numbers where unrepresented for a Republican mayor in Evansville but show what with the right company polling the right 300 hundred people could achieve.

           Mr Parke also denied that one of the polling questions was “If given $1000 would you vote for Mr Winnecke?” but still refuses to release the polling questions that resulted in these highly coveted polling numbers claiming not to want to help the opposition with their own polling.

           /satire off

           JMHO

     • Excellent analyses

       • Got it Brains,Flamed’em.

         • The truth is the private sector and public sector need each other. The government needs the taxes from the private sector, the private sector needs the infrastructure, police, administrators and bureaucratic referees of the government.

           The rich need the poor and vice versa. It is a symbiotic relationship. Arguing which is better or more important is an exercise in mental masturbation. It may make you feel good but ultimately gets you no where. Each leg in the stool is as important as the other.

           Capitalism is neither good nor evil, Socialism is neither good nor evil
           even our commie libraries seem to work fairly well. They’re all just economic tools

           I don’t get the socialism boogie man mentality most Americans have. It’s like demonizing a hammer because it doesn’t saw well or cussing a saw because it makes a very poor hammer.

           Strange.

           Sad thing is because of that Americans miss out on so much.

           • Oh yes, the hammer comes out without the accompanying sickle after an assessment of capitalism and socialism. The people’s republic that used the hammer (workers) and sickle (peasants) as its logo is now broken on the ground. The socialist republic was more corrupt and top heavy that American capitalism has ever been. Life in the hinterlands of mother Russia was not much good for those without buddies in the Kremlin either. The American pendulum swung right in the 80’s and things got better. The pendulum in 2009 swung as far left as it has ever swung and look what it has gotten us. The pendulum is swinging back right again with much incompetence to clean up from misinformed dreamers running the ship in circles.

         • You have to rely on somebody else to reply, as you can’t put two coherent sentences together. By the way, my rectum or any butts have nothing to do with this comment.

   • Definitely it is true that some here must worship money (apparently others money) more then anything else in the world. Most of us just “use money” for everyday living while others are addicted to it like meth? Can not get enough.

     Could it be true that based on this editors story, could it be that the rich are “envy” of the middle and
     bottom class base off of their ROI to tax ratio?

     Would it be true that to get even with those leeches, is to pay them lower two classes more money on their hourly wages just so they have to pay more taxes, and their ROI comes down?

     Finally, is it true that it must be a slow topic point day for the editor, unless the point was to play the “envy card”?

     • The point was simply to put some facts about tax burdens out there and get you guys all thinking and commenting. Mercifully it is a slow news day in Evansville. The Civic Center is closed and the weather is still not the best so we just wanted to get our readers juices flowing.

       • Worked, Really,Man on a human scale Evansville”impact doesn’t amount to much more than a “_______,__,_______”anymore.

         I’ll leave that one to the rest of’em Editor,I’m completely disappointed in the place,its got some promise, sure needs some better direction forward though.

         I read the comments and do see some really bright younger citizens express plenty of good stuff. Great ideation for innovative solutions.
         I get the impression their voices or votes really don’t count for much in the whole scheme of things,and haven’t for quite some time.

         Right now I’m paying more attention to the rest of the country,due the “changed climate” Billions region by region, by the week,yet the boneheads on the beltway still want to stifle the solutions,makes “absolutely no scientific or social economic sense whatsoever.”

         You guys at the CCO have done some good,just since I’ve been looking in,as well. 😉

         $$$$$$$$$ Millions,of good. $$$$$$$$$$

         • Hi again ol’ feller! Please focus your attention on the rest of the country, we don’t need another charlatan here.

     • The sad truth, and painting with a broad brush, give a poor person more and he will spend it and have the same nothing to show for it. Chronic poverty has more to do with one’s attitude toward money than the amount of money. “Wealthy” people may fall on hard times but they will not remain poor.

2. Do those figures include the wars we fight to protect 1% assets in the middle east and other corporate welfare in that .17 roi? What a crock.

   • Here come the talking points. Scratch 2 more from the list. No figures, anecdotal evidence, stats to back it up, as usual.

3. It’s almost like somebody wants to get rid of the middle class…but that’s just crazy talk. Right?

   • Reagan had that dream. It’s almost complete.

     • What not George W.? How about Herbert Hoover? Or maybe, just maybe, it’s the bought and paid for’s of both parties selling us down the river. Those middle class people are just so hard to control that nobody likes them much.

       • Well you see, they have beat the Bush horse beyond any recognizable form of death and now to perpetuate their myths requires the beating of another Republican president. The just like to do it in reverse chronological order. Give them time and they will reach back to the 1800s.

         • Here’s where they will eventually end up:

           Lincoln’s anti-slavery positions ruined commerce in the southern states and forced the slaves to be working poor as sharecroppers.

           Damn Republicans! lol

         • @Phyllip;

           Oh you just had to say that! Now you gave them another talking point.

         • Or you could take Michelle Bachmann’s position that slavery was ok because they were fed and housed. We still have slavery, we just don’t call it that and it isn’t limited to blacks.

         • As long as we have an income tax, you’re right, we do have slavery. And you think that’s ok.

         • @ Brad:
           Geez, the Libertarian speaks!! You just articulated the reason they will never gain much, if any power!

       • That’s correct. The employment policies/laws of corporations/federal government are created collaboratively by the wealthy on both sides. Labor costs are the biggest expense for business. Destroying the middle class in America is good for business now that the world is the market. Those lovely treaties, beginning with NAFTA, which was signed by Clinton, initiated the beginning of the equalization of wages world-wide. We have a long way to go (down) to reach the average wage for which the corporate world is interested, and I mean for skilled labor too.

     • A person looking at his SS earning statement will notice the lower earnings during the reagan years. If you were working middle class and look with a open mind, you don’t have that high of an opinion of r.r. [I’ll never capitalize his name]

4. ” tapped so heavily to transfer earnings to the lowest 20%?”

   That’s the whole point of wealth redistribution; to widen the gap between the haves and have nots.

   • Have your federal taxes increased (not counting the temporary cut that expired and republicans refused to extend)?

     • Yep they have increased. But if you think I will make such personal data available you as proof, you have best stand well away from that rope.

       • Unless your income has increased, you’re a liar.
         Nobody is interested in your income.

         • You are completely clueless about the taxes I pay or my household income and have no basis to call me a liar.

           In fact you would shove two quarters up your nose if I gave them to you for the purchase of a clue, that, is how little you know about my personal finances.

         • Maybe he means the higher sales tax he’s paying thanks to Mitchy boy.

5. Hey Ghost OF Tom Joad did you get your Evansville Water and Sewer bill yet? Thanks to the Mayor and his puppet Council members we are now paying double the amount we paid last month. I’m tired of the Mayor and John Friend political bullshit. Let;s vote both out in the next election.

   • I could get on board with that. I’m not in Friend’s ward though.

     • If Friend is the Mayoral candidate for the Dems, I’m not thrilled. I will vote for Friend, but I won’t donate or work for him.
       I think SBR is the best potential for a Mayor that we currently have on the scene. I am hoping that Friend is a “stalking horse” for a run by her.

       • You wouldn’t say that about SBR if she was a republican.

         • At the local level, who gives a shit about party affiliation?

         • I believe her to be a good representative of her citizens. I see no reason for local declartion of party, they’re too many cross dressers in the closet.

         • Actually, on the local level party makes little difference to me. She impresses me because she seems to do her homework and take her position seriously. Right now, I don’t see a Republican that I could honestly say that about.

6. I think the term “income equality” was a bad one to start with, and it has become much worse with use. I’m not sure what I would substiute for it, though. Maybe “reasonable income parity”?
   The bottom line appears to be this, to me, at least. The US needs a strong middle class to drive a strong economy. That is how it is and how it has been since we built the strength as a nation that we now have, but seem to be losing. I am talking here of the everyday economy that we all deal with when we go to the grocery, buy a car or home, or start a small business. We now have the ultra-rich that don’t give a damn about the US economy, nor the middle class. I’m sure they believe they can run things, no matter who is “in charge”, although I would argue that may not be the case. They are getting a lot more of their share of say-so, thanks to Citizens United and the ownership of our Congress.
   As long as we allow the obstructionists to stop us from spending our way to another strong middle class, to put it bluntly, we’re screwed.

7. Well, I can see that the simple presentation of some facts sent the wealth haters and the entitlement class into a pointless rage today. If you can’t stand the fact that the rich and the middle class are systematically robbed to provide for others these guys make good playmates for you.

   Personally I learned something from this and that is the 20% or so at the bottom are completely dependent on the rest of us for everything from a road to drive on to a pot to piss in.

   Go ahead an redistribute everything and start with a level playing field one time. Come back in 5 years and the top 20% today will be the top 20% again and the bottom 20% today will get back to the bottom through poor life choices.

   Go on and eat the top 20% and let the nation be run by beggars. The good old USA will be like Indonesia before long if the top 40% all decide to stop working.

   Keep on hating you dumb shits. It won’t solve anything and redistribution won’t either. If you like equality of income, move to any Indian reservation and see how that is working out for them.

   • Trickle down failed. The proof is in the pudding. I’d say the rich are doing pretty damn well and you’ve bought the lies that they’re being robbed.

     • The poor of today live better than the rich did 100 years ago. That pretty much proves that trickle down worked in my book. The rich have always done pretty damn well and by global standards our poor are doing pretty damn well too whether they work or not. The definition of stealing is to take something by force or in secret without permission of the owner. Given that definition then everyone that is a net payer of taxes is being robbed and everyone that receives the plunder is an accessory to theft. Tell me Ghost, when did you give the government permission to take what is yours?

       • So you like the idea of people starving in the streets of this country, huh?

         • No, not at all. I just do not like the politicians whipping up one group of Americans against other groups based on envy. Do you really think that 20% of the population would just starve if the teet was cut off? I don’t. I think they would find a way to earn a living the old fashioned way by working. There are I grant you, some number of people that are less than 5% who can not make it on their own for various reasons. They need support from the rest of us and I have no problem with that.

         • LKB, the sad fact of the matter is that one has to be willing to work, and do what it takes to make a living. Ghost has some good points, as do you, but for the system to function properly, people have to be willing to work. Too often, I have seen those who complain the loudest work the least. If you are compensated by the hour, it stands to reason that you will make more money the more hours you work. One thing that is lost in this thread: how many hours a week do the “rich” work vs the “working poor”.

         • So you like the idea of more people being made dependents of the government for something as basic as eating?

       • That argument that the poor are better off than 100 years ago is ridiculous. Of course technology has advanced. Everyone js better off.

         • You are contradicting yourself today Ghost. Where did all that technology come from? Was the profit motive not a driving force behind the advancements that have made everyone including the poor have a better life? Are the poor not employed by the companies that developed these technologies. You usually are good at connecting the dots. Surely you can see that technology is also something that trickles down. Only the rich could afford portable phones in the early days of the late 1970’s. Now they are cheap and disposable. They trickled down to the rest of us. Take off your blinders of hate and envy. Recognize the fruits of capitalism and how things are better because of it.

     • Ghost….way to change the subject and veer the conversation away from anything that was stated. As usual you spew useless comments. How exactly did trickle down fail? You say you have proof…where is it, share with the rest of us. Your entitlement bandwagon is reaching the end of its run bubba.

   • Georgia Hoosier, I saw this talking point on the internet the other day:

     “The people who work for a living, are being overwhelmed by the people who vote for “a living!”– anonymous

     Who is the slave? –it is as it’s always been,–the working man.–Who is the “owner”? Why the tax wielding government of the “voters”…

8. There is an interesting article that is applicable to this discussion in Time Magazine Feb 24, 2014 entitled “The School that will get you a job”. It speaks to large corporations working with schools in poorer areas to improve the education of high school students by offering an improved 6 year high school (4 high school years and 2 college years) so graduating high school also provides an associates degree. Plus the supporting corporation guarantees hiring the graduates. This raises kids out of the poverty cycle and into “middle class” status. It is worth a read.

   • Interesting!

     Does the funding for these kids typical of high school, paid by school corporations, and the last two years by the students themselves? Or does the corporation pay for some of this schooling?

     • This is all still in the infant stage and there are several corporations involved in various states. Financing all varies depending on the program, the industry, and the state involved.

       But there is a bigger point here. It is that this is projected to be the next jump or phase of public education. In the early 1900s the standard for education attainment was grade eight if that. Then mid century that bar was raised to graduating from high school. Now many people more informed in education than most of us believe that this 5-6 year high school/college associates degree is the next advance for public education and will be based on direct corporate support and involvement in coordination witn the public schools particularly in very poor neighborhoods.

       These associates degree are the middle ground between flipping burgers and higher management-level employment. It is a more specialized STEM type program providing young people the types of fields most in demand for the future. It gives kids direction in a career that they may have been lacking and brings out their drive to succeed. It supplies the corporation with employees with the education and skills that are needed to fit the jobs that are going empty now. And by locating in poor neighborhoods where the need is great for educating children better it helps the city in general to move forward. However this program is not just adding a year of two to the traditional high school. It is completely new educational program for those 5-6 years,

       So far these schools have been located in larger cities in which these large corporations like IBM are located so that new grads are readily assured of having employment at home. And across the board these kids are blossoming! It may be time to realize that what worked for us does not work so well any more and that this or some form of it is an idea whose time has come.

       There is a local program coordinated with USI where some high school classes can count toward college credits. This program that I am describing is a quantum leap forward from that but Evansville at least has got something started.

       Please pick up a copy of the Time Feb 24, 2014 and read about the whole program. My explanation did not do it justice here. Yes it would be an expense most likely for the local schools in any area. But that should not negate investigating new ideas to help kids learn or to make sure that they are employable, well educated citizens. It could stop the brain drain that is often referred to here.

       • That sounds like some very worthwhile reading. Thanks for the tip, BB.

       • Excuse me, I mean “Martha”. That’s what I get for trying to multi-task.

9. IS IT TRUE that Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary? YES IT IS!

   Thats all you need to know folks. Sure, in gross dollars he pays more, but he pays a far lower percentange.

   You cannot argue that fact, you cannot defend that this is somehow fair.

   He should be taxed at the EXACT same rate as every other American.

   • Is it true one only needs to look up the history on individual, capitol gains, ect. taxes, that it is the lowest in several generations for the well-to-do?

   • Then demand that the congress and president ditch the complicated monstrosity that we have and pass a flat tax. It would be easy and there would be no loopholes. Forbes has advocated for that for years.

     • Difficult to gauge your response. I get different messages.

       Either…
       1. You are blaming me an individual(implied you in the sentence “Then (you) demand etc.”) for not waving my magic wand and demanding to change the whole government ok…interesting your argument is to suspend reality (that I can DEMAND congress and the president change) then attack me because I didn’t do this work in this magic world of your creation? Dude, just wierd.

       or….
       2. You are making fun of people like Forbes who have advocated a flat tax. In that case it also means you are very happy that Warren Buffet pays a lower percentage of income in tax than his secretary.

       or…
       3. You support a flat tax. But did not say so in so many words.

       or 1 and 3 because the only way to interpret the implied you in the sentence “Then (you) demand etc.” is to suspend reality in your magic world where it is possible that an individual can DEMAND to change the government on his/her own. In this magic world where this is possible, I somehow have a character flaw that I have not completed the DEMANDING you suggest I do…so in your eyes it is my fault…..and you are for a flat tax.

       I’m going with the 1 and 3 combo. You are faulting me, a single individual because you have invented a magical world where reality is suspended, and I can simply DEMAND congress and the prez change. Ya..thats logical….and also you are probably for a flat tax.

       • How about a 4th option. I am encouraging you to decide what you want and to let your elected officials know what you want. With regard to a flat tax it is an idea that I personally like and would like to see implemented if it is feasible. A flat tax would eliminate the us vs. them that our politicians seem to exploit. I do not blame you or anyone else as an individual for anything at all. I blame and accept blame as it may be appropriate for a majority of Americans being so oblivious to how our country runs to allow us to get to the point we are now.

         As for the flat tax and Mr. Buffet. While Buffet may pay a lower percentage than his secretary he certainly pays more money for the same complement of services. In a way that is unfair to Buffet. Flat fee simply will not work but is the most fair. If you divide the federal budget by the population you will get a number of roughly $14,000 per person. While that may be fair it is completely infeasible given that so many people can’t afford to cough up $14,000 for the service they get.

         A flat percentage is a good compromise in theory. Studies have shown that the number would have to be 17% to balance the federal budget. Abolish all deductions and just do it. I think you will see more accountability demanded from the taxpayers if everyone has to pay something and that percentage is flat. Buffet could pay $170 Million if he makes a billion and his secretary can pay $17,000 if she makes $100,000.

         Tax earnings and capital the same way making your taxes very simple. HR Block, Liberty, and a bunch of accountants would be out of business and available to go do something for a living that adds value to the economy. Another idea I have is to end payroll deductions. Each week workers get their paychecks and would have to write a check that day and sign it to pay their taxes. That will increase accountability in government as well.

         • Yes, indeed! That’s just the answer! Those much-villified single moms with their minimum wage jobs need to “fork over” 17% of their paychecks. That’ll teach them!
           Here is yet another reason that the Libertarians aren’t going to win any elections. They make good sense, until they don’t. You just hit that point.

           • So how would you suggest that the federal budget is balanced in a manner that does not pit people against each other and maintains a shred of fairness? How about if as you call them “vilified” single moms pay 1% or 5% or something other than ZERO? Are you content to have a large group of people who pay absolutely nothing or are continually on the dole for the privilege of citizenship?

             Do they not already fork over 7.65% of their income in FICA taxes? Heck LKB they are almost half way there just with the payroll taxes.

         • Flat tax is a terribly regressive system. I’m sure you’re all for it.

           • Is it really regressive? Those who earn more will pay more. Is that not the definition of progressive taxation?

         • editor,

           Is it true that buzzards are circling around the comment about balance federal budget that does not pit people (monetary) against each other but seems too many of Is It True” topics of the day are just that!

           (comment is projected in good spirit)

           • I just placed the facts out there for the fun of watching the sharks circle and snap. It is not necessary for people to attack simple facts but it seems as that is what happens.

         • “Abolish all deductions and just do it.”

           Can you imagine what Lady McClintock would say about eliminating the mortgage interest deduction which would dampen home sales which in turn would dampen the economy?

           Also using Buffet’s secretary making $100,000 and paying $17,000 would be more realistic in today’s economy saying she makes $17,000 and pays $2,890 dollars in taxes.

           Politicians lie, others dream of pie in the sky.

           • Mortgage interest deduction = subsidized banking. How did that ever happen in the first place. Why is interest on a mortgage (the revenue source of banks) a deduction when other businesses revenue does not qualify for a deduction. Medical expenses do but only after you reach a very high threshold. I guess our lawmakers like banks better than they like hospitals.

             I bet you a lunch that Buffet’s secretary earns closer to $100,000 than she does to $17,000. As for pies in the sky, I support a taxation scheme that is so simple that a 5th grader can understand it and fill out a tax form. All of the complexity is unnecessary and serves to create a parasitic cottage industry while keeping people in the dark.

         • Editor,
           Seems we are opposite in the nature world too! I used the sky, and you the sea!

         • I’ll bet you a seminar on thermodynamics Buffet’s secretary makes more than $200,000 with stock options out the gazzoo.

           I don’t understand why you didn’t understand I was talking about all the secretaries in the country who just happen to not be Buffet’s secretary.

           Getting late

           ain’t it?

         • Tell that to people like the shill conman Larry Kudlow who wanted preferential for his rich Wall St buddies during the Reagan years. His pre-text was cutting the capital gains tax would allow “capital formation”. He got away with it again during the W’s term

           Well Larry got his wish so of course a subsidy/floor led to a surplus of capital(Econ 101) which ended up chasing tech stocks and then the housing market etc.

           Why is capital any better or worse than labor?? Editor is correct neither should be given preferential treament. Thanks to shills like Larry, we’re swimming in capital except it is not being put to work here, it is hidden in overseas bank accounts costing the US Treasury $100B-$200B/year in revenue. These accounts also cost the countries of Greece and Spain dearly NOT universal health care.
           Corporations have $22T in cash stashed away in offshore accounts(Source: Commerce Dept) enough to pay off the entire national debt.

           So this narrative about not being able to tax the rich on their INCOME enough to balance the budget is true but it is as misleading as a dealer in a game of three card monte. There is MORE THAN ENOUGH capital floating around.

           • I will take it on faith that the $22 Trillion held offshore is a true number. The Commerce Department would have learned that from the tax returns and SEC disclosures filed by these US Corporations. It is not hidden. It is there in plain sight and fully legal under the laws of our land. Republicans and Democrats when in full and absolute control of the government have done nothing to make holding cash outside the country illegal.

             As for confiscating it to pay off the debt, I hope you are just using that as an example of how much it is. Unreasonable search and seizure is not something our government is allowed to do. It is actually covered by the 4th Amendment to the constitution. That money belongs to those businesses or people and the government has no right to it period. I do wish they would choose to deposit it with US based banks but that is their choice and there are risks that accompany offshoring money including interest rate moves, currency stability, etc.

             So, where does this money go? It goes to places that have better financial stability and more freedoms that we have. Once again, neither party has been doing anything since the 90’s to attract that money back. It is interesting that Greece, Spain, and the United States are all hurting from the flight of capital. Could that be the similarities in our financial policies that are driving the cash away?

             One more thing. The day our congress starts discussing making it illegal to hold money outside the country is when the rest of it will start to leave. China, the USSR, and Disneyland (Disney dollars) are the only places that have tried to do that and those currencies are useless outside their borders.

         • I’ll gladly pay only 17%.

         • 1) In concept I have NO PROBLEM “confiscating” something back that was stolen from us to begin with.

           However, in practice I know that would be impossible to sort out and enforce.

           2) The $22T is just what corporations have stashed away. The amount individuals have hidden is also estimated to be in the $10’s of Trillions also.

           It’s not being put to work, and most likely NEVER WILL BE.

           Where probably going to get a corporate tax cut soon as part of somesort of “grand bargain” and I will bet editor a steak dinner that 99% of that tax cut will end up the hands of CEO’s or the top 5% of managment. Not one nickel will be reinvested back into the economy.

           • Well, if said money was stolen why has no one been charged with a crime and prosecuted? They would if they could you know. Actually much of that money is on the sidelines waiting to be put to work but may not be if there is no expectation of profit. Even rich scroungers would rather earn 10% on their money that the 1% that deposit banks pay these days. What does one invest in nowadays and why are we not doing it here?

             I will take your bet and will be interested in seeing how to trace that money into anyone’s pocket at all. Hell, BB I will buy you a steak dinner next time I come to town for the pleasure of your company.

     • I truly don’t give a flying fig WHAT Forbes advocates. Steve couldn’t even get the nomination for the presidency. Remember?
       The endorsement of the regressive, repressive flat tax is one of many reasons that Libertarians are not going to run the Republican party any time soon. By all means, DO keep trying, though. A divided party is a weak party.

       • Forbes and Kudlow are shills and conmen for the rich with people like Reagan and W acting as the dealer in this game of three card monte.

         Its hard to say who is the bigger conman, they’re definitely BFF though.

       • Ah there it is. LKB’s holier than thou attitude. We haven’t seen it for awhile. She has been stuck in victim mode lately. You know all the single working mothers and all that.

10. (slow Sunday morning, Morton Markus article last Sunday)

    Nation still 649,000 jobs short from six years ago.
    Indiana is 28,900 short in same period.

    Average wage national wide
    2007 $21.37
    2013 $24.31

    Average Indiana wage
    2007 $20.37 (-$1.00)
    2013 $22.55 (-$1.76)(Raise is 31st among the states)

    Nations average wage earners hours 35 down to 34.8 today
    Indiana average 35.7 hours down to 34.9 today

    2007- Weekly earning gap for Indiana vrs. nation. $20.74
    2013- Up to $58.99 per week gap

    • Morton Marcus (not Markus)

11. Outstanding and civil posts by everyone. Honest, open and on message posts.

12. Anybody here willing to venture a guess as to why tax cuts will never again be as stimulative as the 1981 tax cuts were??

    There are two main reasons.

    I will wait and see if any of the financial and economic wizards here can get even one of them.

    Read this and shake your head.

    http://econbrowser.com/archives/2008/10/pocketfull_of_m

    Extending the Bush tax cuts and accelerated depreciation were bringing up the rear.

    Tell me again borrowing money at 4% and investing in infrastructure projects wouldn’t help the economy????

    Of course when the stimulus was passed “Mr compromise”, Obama, let the GOP lead him into the wilderness.

    • I haven’t checked your link yet but was a young professional during the early 80’s. Interest rates were as high as 20% and buying a house at nearly any price was impossible. Paul Volker under the Reagan Administration ratcheted interest rates down to create more and cheaper money that went into housing and consumer goods. I remember the tax cut. It put about $30 a paycheck extra in my pocket but it was the interest rate cuts that allowed me to invest. It is not possible to know how much of the prosperity of the 80’s and 90’s was due to tax cuts and how much was due to lowering interest rates. My guess would be the interest rates made more of a difference than the tax rates.

      Neither Bush nor Obama have had the luxury to create cash from thin air by lowering interest rates because the rates are so low. Their only option has been the printing press.

      Borrowing (or even printing) at 4% or even less is a good decision if the projects are priced at market, are needed, and clearly promote commerce. If it is just to buy overpriced items from cronies or pay $45 Million for a building that the market value is only $25 Million (ala the Evansville hotel) then it may help 50 people’s budget but it is irresponsible spending. If government can get a handle on value, I am all for spending on things that are needed.

      • it is true today is the 5th anniversary of barrys failed 825 billion stimulus………along with barrys failed obamacare it should be clear to anyone as to why Americas economy is in the tank…….tick tock……tick tock goes the poverty/debt clock…….. http://www.usdebtclock.org/

        • That number is flawed. Lots of that is owed back with interest. If you think all will default you’re a moron. Oh and what about Bush’s mideast fiasco? Didn’t hear you piss and moan about that?

          • that number is flawed…..owed back with interest…..what are you babbling about……..ribbit……ribbit…..

    • Obama lives in the wilderness and walks around in circles all the day long. No one lead him there. One could call him the Prince of the Wilderness.

      • John McCain threw a hissy fit on the Senate floor saying the stimulus should be 60% spending and 40% tax cuts because that was the split in the Senate.

        Did hMcCain and the other republicans listen to Zandi’s testimony?? HELLLLLL NO. Niether did Obama, he split the baby trying to appeans the RW whacadoodles. So we got the lukewarm stimulus

        NO, Obama is an estlishment corporatist.

        Does Fox News back republicans?? Ummm yes BUT MOSTLY they BACK THE ESTABLISHMENT.

        Watch as O’Reilly backs Hillary. WHY because O’ Reilly LOVES THE ESTABLISHMNENT even more than repbuplicans and he sees the handwriting on the wall the repubs have no one who can beat Hillary. Sooooo he backs HER.

        Elizabeth Warren scares them sh@tless because then they would actually have to play by the rules and the rules would be enforced.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRkrYfFaza8

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